Have addons indirectly ruined the game ?

[Turaska]

Yes, Addons did screw the game.. they weren't the only cause though.

[cFortyfive]

Most groups I join (if I can even get an invite, which I hardly ever can), kick me when we get to upper... For the reason you previously described... They don't want to "carry bads"... Even though I run simcraft and I am usually within 1-2k DPS of what a simulation running at 100% efficiency says is even possible with my gear... But I am "bad" because of that number...

I absolutely agree that the pugging experience especially that late into an addon can be insufferable but I don't think removing the option to see damage is a good solution or even necessarily the reason for the problem to begin with. Even though I was obviously being extra snarky about it how would you ever be able to figure out the problem areas if it wasn't for the existence of combat log parsing ?
Ilvls have such importance in pug content because there is next to nothing else to use.

[MattEffect]

Are there specific addons for each an every encounter with the influence those have ?
No.
You are just hellbent on addon bashing for the sake of it.
If the visual or audible cues worked for everyone there wouldn't be a need for anything else.
People use what works for them, you just can't accept that.

My argument is simple. Some addons did indirectly make WoW a worse game. I'm not bashing addons or people who use them, I'm bringing up specific addons to support my point. For reference I am not against addons; I use Weak Auras, DBM, and Recount.

Hmm, maybe its true that I am naive about Healbot. I watched a disc priest using it, so probably not the best example given their WoD rotation. Exorsus raid tools (sp?) comes to mind though. Instead of coordinating where to go on a boss in HFC and BRF, you just download an addon that gives you an arrow and points you there. Why do we need an addon to make something trivial when it doesn't need to be? I can't help but feel that so many addons like these exist now a days that the content is easier because of it. What circle of hell would your raid be in if you didn't set a Weak Aura string for the final phase of Archimonde?

If they removed addons from Mythic raiding, do you think they would clear it as fast as they do currently?
Do you not think that addons and complex macros led to the botting?

I understand you. People should be able to customize the game as they see fit, use options that are available, and that function better for the individual. Even knowing this, I can still be of the opinion that some addons have had a negative impact on the game.

[Deleted]

If they removed addons from Mythic raiding, do you think they would clear it as fast as they do currently?
Do you not think that addons and complex macros led to the botting?

I think it's quite the opposite, because the game give you room to make it easier, it prevents botting. Addons/Macros cannot automate playing the game. They can make it a shit ton easier, but you still have to play the game.

Bots play the game for you. And depending on what you do and how good the bot is, they are probably doing it so good, you don't feel the need to play yourself.

If a class has a rotation than can be made into a castsequence macro without too much loss in performance, it keeps people from going out and finding a bot to do the rotation for them.
They maybe only press one button, but at least they press that button and they can make mistakes.
A Bot on the other hand, does the rotation and most would react without any mistakes to given situations.

So the Macro-Player presses his button and ignores the fire on the ground. He dies.
The bot, does the rotation and leaves the fire every time. Because they are programmed to just do that: Play the game with as little mistakes as possible.


So no, AddOns may have saved WoW from a lot of botting.

[Rhoe]

As someone who is using almost a hundred addons on live, and one on beta (damage meters), no, I do not think addons ruin the game at all. They merely make life a lot more convenient. Having (almost) no addons on beta means I have to listen for my lifebloom to expire. Does that make the game harder, more interesting or in any way better? No, it's only annoying and would easily be fixed by simply making a weakaura for monitoring it. Would the weakaura play the game for me? No, it's merely my preference to have a visual cue instead of an auditory one. Bossmods you say? Yes, it would save some time (and occasionlly allow me to gaze at the beautiful surroundings) if I was presented by information about abilities coming up soon instead of staring at my feet. Does the bossmods play the game for me? No, it would merely show me the information in a way I prefer. *I* still have to react to the information.

The only times I think addons make the game easier in a significant way is with abilities/mechanics like the orb on Iskar, which you could easily make a workaround for yourself with the default raidframes and a mouseover macro. An addon merely saves you the time to help everyone in the raid set up said mouseover macro and ensure that it works before every pull. Or souls on mythic Gorefiend, a mechanic I very much doubt would even be in the game if Blizzard didn't know they could rely on people to make addons for showing the cast bars for all the souls at the same time. And wrought chaos on Archimonde mythic. Is there really room in a game without addons for such mechanics where currently even the top guilds in the world need to *make* addons in order to defeat the encounters in a timely manner? I doubt it. Which means addons bring us more interesting mechanics rather than making the game easier.

If addons actually do the work for you, they are not addons, they're botting tools.

[khazmodan]

Addons are not the problem in WoW, the developers turning it into a single player experience and not focusing on fun gameplay is the problem. How many of you tried to do the garrisons on multiple alts without the addons to make it faster?, my god, i felt like the devil showed up at blizzard HQ and showed them how to torture people with tedium. On the other hand i agree with recount being both good and bad in making some stand in fire to get higher numbers while others use it to improve rotations and overall contribution.

- - - Updated - - -

If they removed addons from Mythic raiding, do you think they would clear it as fast as they do currently?
Do you not think that addons and complex macros led to the botting?

it took 470 tries before mythic Archimonde was taken down by method for a world first....obviously Blizzard takes addons into account when designing fights and the game itself. The real question is; is this game design making the game more fun and more replayable and helping the social atmosphere? Obviously there is a problem but Addons are often times just taking out boring parts of the game or making things more obvious for the over focused.

[Echocho]

Blizzard could easily fix all of these issues by removing the combat log. No boss mods, no weakauras, nothing like that.

[MattEffect]

Is there really room in a game without addons for such mechanics where currently even the top guilds in the world need to *make* addons in order to defeat the encounters in a timely manner? I doubt it. Which means addons bring us more interesting mechanics rather than making the game easier.

It has brought us both ways. Mythic is a very challenging mode and LFR is not. I don't think LFR is bad, but I can use it as an example of the game becoming easier.

[Zyky]

If you ask Blizzard they haven't ruined the game more than camera distance.

[MattEffect]

If you ask Blizzard they haven't ruined the game more than camera distance.

Camera distance change is an indirect attack on addons. Now that you can't zoom out as far peoples screens are too cluttered.

[Saikon]

Some addons have improved the game, such as damage meters,auctionator and unitframe/UI addons since i do not like the standart ui.
However addons like Deadly boss mod make the game easier since it provides timers over certain abilities and such, there's also pvp addons that tracks enemy CDs and trinkets + marking healers in bgs.

They might not ruin the game but they are making it easier to play the game better.
I would like to see a version of wow with a in-game healing/dmg meter and more customization regards to UI and then making players unable to mod the game, in that way the game itself will be more challenging

[Solidito]

I probably wouldn't have stayed playing WoW this long without addons, might sound crazy to some people but it's just how it is.

[Laz]

No, they haven't but naysayers like yourself have indirectly ruined the game for those that like positive posts, not the "let's see what we can pick at today" posts.

[Mercane]

Most groups I join (if I can even get an invite, which I hardly ever can), kick me when we get to upper... For the reason you previously described... They don't want to "carry bads"... Even though I run simcraft and I am usually within 1-2k DPS of what a simulation running at 100% efficiency says is even possible with my gear... But I am "bad" because of that number...

I don't make judgements based on overall dps, I make judgements based on 'avoidable damage taken'.

This is a common theme in most groups.

A guy invites a 715 rogue to his raid, for example, he has a preconceived notion of what a "good" rogue of that ilvl does DPS wise. But his idea of good DPS has a four set and a class trinket carrying it, while the 715 he invited doesn't have either... So now the 715 catches shit for being "bad" even if he is playing his spec 100% optimally simply because he doesn't have the gear... He at the very least gets kicked for "sucking", probably gets called out and told he's garbage first though.

Seems a bit hyperbolic to me, if anyone bothers to armory a would-be raider for his team- the first 2 things they are going to look for is legendary progress and if they have a 2/4 piece. The 'bar' as it were for people without either has always been ~40k, and if someone is expecting you to pull numbers without that gear, then you're probably better off not raiding with them anyway- these types usually look for any reason other than their own performance to justify stifled progression.

[Deleted]

The only addons that I think are bad for game are auction house addons, specifically undercutting and checking if your auctions have been undercut. It led to massive amount of auction house campers that prevent normal players from selling anything.

Though default UI sucks badly for purchasing stuff. Before disabling AH addons, default UI needs to be improved to sort items by price per 1 item regardless of stack size and make it possible to buy multiple items fast.

[cFortyfive]

Do you not think that addons and complex macros led to the botting?

Just no. Wow. No.

I probably wouldn't have stayed playing WoW this long without addons, might sound crazy to some people but it's just how it is.

Not to me the lack of customization in other mmos really appalls me. Standard uis are just hideous.

[Echocho]

Not to me the lack of customization in other mmos really appalls me. Standard uis are just hideous.

Customizing UIs is one thing. Addons that make encounters easier by telling you what to do in 5...4...3...2...1 is another. Addons like weakauras that can tell you what button to press when is also borderline. Addons shouldn't have access to the combat log in my opinion.

[cFortyfive]

addons that make encounters easier by telling you what to do in 5...4...3...2...1 is another. Addons like weakauras that can tell you what button to press when is also borderline.

It would be a relevant argument if we'd be at a point where encounters are easier than they have been but they simply are not.

[Nahela]

The opposite actually. Without addons like DBM, encounter design would never have reached the point it's at today. It simply wouldn't be feasible for players to complete those encounters without secondary information, either through the base UI or addons like DBM. You can see this in many other games on how simplistic their encounter design is unless they have significant built-in warnings.

There's always the argument that content is 'too easy now' which is just simply untrue. Back in classic bosses weren't killed simply due to poor design, unintentional gating, and lack of resources. Since then the game has become more and more challenging at the upper level.

Where I will agree however is that, as a result of addons, the encounter design has become so complex at the top level that it's impossible to properly scale it down. So you end up with things like LFR and Normal where numerous mechanics aren't present or simply nerfed to the point they can be ignored, leading to a pretty unsatisfying experience for those players.

[PenguinChan]

It has made raiding really stupid, if you ask me. Designing and balancing a game around a third party plugin that isn't even in the game? Come on, program it in if you're going to do that. Regardless though, addons have definitely changed the game for better or for worse -- and anyone with some amount of knowledge knows that. You can thank someone at the bottom of your hearts for more than one action bar because of an addon early on in WoW's life cycle. GearScore, for all its woes definitely seemed to bring forth the importance of ilvl on gear, instead of it hiding behind the players eyes. I don't think ilvl was ever prominent until GS became a thing, despite existing since Classic behind the scenes.

Addons are great, but they are also the bane of development at times. I think DBM and things such as that shouldn't even exist or be allowed, and any important raid information should be brought forth to you. But only limited amount of info is actually put in your face, and not everything is obvious that DBM provides. I can't remember the older versions of DBM, there has always been a different one almost every other expansion that performs the same role.