Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Echil46]

Yes i know it is easy,but people seems to be scared by the "weird camera jump trick"

Well they're gonna learn, like good hunters learned to jumpshot, or kept wondering why they weren't as good as others.

Originaly, I saw VR as a Disengage. And I feel like I won't be the only one to make that mistake. Hopefully i'm wrong. Because when you use VR as Disengage, and you aknowldege that Momentum requires a bit of thinking and preparation ahead of a fight, the question is : How can i get back in range ASAP.
What i find hard to grasp is the fact that Vengeful Retreat isn't meant to be used in conjunction with Fel Rush or Felblade, but rather, through the target.
Once you understand that there's a way not to get out of melee range when using VR, the question becomes "Can i use it now whithout getting in trouble?", which is a normal question shared by many Melee dps.

My critics against VR isn't "how it works" but "the way it works makes you ask yourself the wrong question". Which is why i'm saying it's counter intuitive.
Now, i know with guides the real question will be underlined. Yet, i feel like they could have done a better job at designing a skill for the Havoc DH to be the "Look at me i'm Jumping all around" dps they wanted.

[bryntjl]

Yes i know it is easy,but people seems to be scared by the "weird camera jump trick"

Its not a weird trick. Since the beginning of time you've been able to turn your character using your mouse. You just turn and face the other way from the boss, and use void rush. Simply do it slowly, and just repeat it until you get it down to acceptable levels of time.

[Qck]

Well they're gonna learn, like good hunters learned to jumpshot, or kept wondering why they weren't as good as others.

Originaly, I saw VR as a Disengage. And I feel like I won't be the only one to make that mistake. Hopefully i'm wrong. Because when you use VR as Disengage, and you aknowldege that Momentum requires a bit of thinking and preparation ahead of a fight, the question is : How can i get back in range ASAP.
What i find hard to grasp is the fact that Vengeful Retreat isn't meant to be used in conjunction with Fel Rush or Felblade, but rather, through the target.
Once you understand that there's a way not to get out of melee range when using VR, the question becomes "Can i use it now whithout getting in trouble?", which is a normal question shared by many Melee dps.

My critics against VR isn't "how it works" but "the way it works makes you ask yourself the wrong question". Which is why i'm saying it's counter intuitive.
Now, i know with guides the real question will be underlined. Yet, i feel like they could have done a better job at designing a skill for the Havoc DH to be the "Look at me i'm Jumping all around" dps they wanted.

The thing is, I don't think that VR is meant to be used that way, at least in terms of game design, it's just that players are resourceful and generally find ways to increase damage that developers don't think of... creative use of game mechanics and all.

It certainly is counter intuitive, and with the way Blizzard are going out of their way to remove every bit of animation cancelling in the two abilities I'm fairly sure it was never intended to be part of a single target rotation. Whether they'll be happy with it requiring quite a bit more effort than anything else in the game to play and leave it as is, or feel they need to nerf the numbers remains to be seen, I guess.

I wouldn't get confused though, I doubt this style of play was intended when they created the abilities. Whether they like it or not remains to be seen, but there is still a lot of time and scope for numbers changes if they aren't happy with it. As you said, it seems counter to how you would interpret the abilities when you first look at them, something the designers seem to stray away from with the simplification of gameplay in recent years.

[mitre27]

Really not liking the idea of momentum, just having a movement skill tied to damage seems really stupid to me.

[bloodkraven]

Really not liking the idea of momentum, just having a movement skill tied to damage seems really stupid to me.

It's a good thing Nemesis exists then huh!

[Jhos]

Its not a weird trick. Since the beginning of time you've been able to turn your character using your mouse. You just turn and face the other way from the boss, and use void rush. Simply do it slowly, and just repeat it until you get it down to acceptable levels of time.

Yes,i know how to do it,and i know it's not a trick (didn't find another word),i was just answering to other people.

Really not liking the idea of momentum, just having a movement skill tied to damage seems really stupid to me.

I respect your tastes,it's ok to not like momentum.i only want to say it is just another way to add complexity to an otherwise simple rotation (without talents ofc) adding some planning and the core of the class,the mobility,to your dps "rotation".I think that considering how the class have been described it make sense.
Obviously there are other talents to change your playstyle and if one,not necessarily you,don't like them either and is looking for them to be changed i suggest to reconsider maining a DH.

[Echil46]

I wouldn't get confused though, I doubt this style of play was intended when they created the abilities. Whether they like it or not remains to be seen, but there is still a lot of time and scope for numbers changes if they aren't happy with it. As you said, it seems counter to how you would interpret the abilities when you first look at them, something the designers seem to stray away from with the simplification of gameplay in recent years.

Yeah, I feel like if they intended such a movement skill to be part of a single target, they would have made something that would make you jump 180% on the other side of your target. Which would have changed the dynamic of preparing the fight, as in "i need to make sure i won't be just in front of the target and get hit by cleave / fire / whatever", or simply "i gotta make sure there's something on the other side of the boss from where i'm jumping". Which would have the same effect of our "go through" Fel Rush.

[mitre27]

Yes,i know how to do it,and i know it's not a trick (didn't find another word),i was just answering to other people.



I respect your tastes,it's ok to not like momentum.i only want to say it is just another way to add complexity to an otherwise simple rotation (without talents ofc) adding some planning and the core of the class,the mobility,to your dps "rotation".I think that considering how the class have been described it make sense.
Obviously there are other talents to change your playstyle and if one,not necessarily you,don't like them either and is looking for them to be changed i suggest to reconsider maining a DH.

One of the reasons i leaned towards DH was because it was advertised as the most mobile class (Which is false anyway) but to then have to use your main movement skill as a dps cd is annoying, i can only pray that the difference isn't that big.

It is a shame that my prefered spec is simpler though, not a fan of demon blades but if it's top i won't be too upset (Though in the Q&A they said it will be the worst choice)

[Rigwaltz]

Question with artifact progression. Since blade dance is pretty low on ST priority and isn't top priority on MT couldn't we skip balance blades till later on ? With the WoW head artifact calculator I was able to skip it and rank up both Sharpened glaives and Demon unleashed. I was able to get both Anguish of the Deceiver and Rage of the illidari without balance blades enable. This was all done on the WoW head artifact calculator and unconfirmed if actually game artifact would allow this.

[Vanyali]

Question with artifact progression. Since blade dance is pretty low on ST priority and isn't top priority on MT couldn't we skip balance blades till later on ? With the WoW head artifact calculator I was able to skip it and rank up both Sharpened glaives and Demon unleashed. I was able to get both Anguish of the Deceiver and Rage of the illidari without balance blades enable. This was all done on the WoW head artifact calculator and unconfirmed if actually game artifact would allow this.

you could, but many bosses have AoE where you'll want to use it, and it comes in very handy in open world / pushing mythic+ as well. It doesn't unlock anything, and since it's within the first 13 it's essentially free anyway.

[Deleted]

Hey they said during the Demon Hunter Q&A that they will change Demon Blades. Do you know if they did ? And if they did what did they change please ?

[ChakanDH]

Hey they said during the Demon Hunter Q&A that they will change Demon Blades. Do you know if they did ? And if they did what did they change please ?

Mechanically I doubt they will be changing anything, just damage that it does/fury gen so that it's not the top choice for that row.

Though, unless its severely undertuned I'll still be using it with certain builds.

[Carthh]

I only recently got into beta and haven't had much time to go through a ton of stuff but I was looking at the artifact trait order in the first post and had a couple questions about the traits I was hoping someone could answer.

The first was the order in which the traits were selected. From what I've read the first 13 points come pretty easily before the exp required for the next point starts to increase by a lot, so I figured you would want to get to one of the gold traits within your first 13 points. Unless I read your picture wrong, apologies if I did, you don't get Anguish of the Deceiver until the 16 point when you could get it at 13. I know eventually you'll get all the points but I feel like you would want the most valuable ones as soon as possible. I tried to make a similar picture here (I can't post links sorry) imgur.com/a/6bozT

I was also wondering why you chose to go for Rage of the Illidari before Inner Demons? I haven't personally tested each trait to see how they work so I only have the wording to go off of, but it seems as if Inner Demons will outperform Rage so long as ID has more than 1 proc per minute. That being said I have no idea what the proc rate of ID is or if it also procs off of Annihilation so I could be completely off. In aoe situations, it sounds like ID would be much better than Rage, due to Rage damage being split and ID not. Single target would depend on ID proc rate so I don't know about that.

I wasn't sure if Rage was chosen first because of the talents along the way because you definitely get more efficiency out of the minor traits when going for Rage, but the big difference is you can get to Rage with 10 more points, while it would only take 5 more points to get to ID. I don't know how quickly you get trait points at that high so it could be negligible but it could also be a lot less points for dps gain. Like I said, I only recently received beta so I could be completely missing something obvious about the gold traits so I apologize in advance was just curious and this seems to be the only place for decent theorycrafting on the matter.

[troqu]

The first was the order in which the traits were selected. From what I've read the first 13 points come pretty easily before the exp required for the next point starts to increase by a lot, so I figured you would want to get to one of the gold traits within your first 13 points. Unless I read your picture wrong, apologies if I did, you don't get Anguish of the Deceiver until the 16 point when you could get it at 13. I know eventually you'll get all the points but I feel like you would want the most valuable ones as soon as possible. I tried to make a similar picture here (I can't post links sorry) imgur.com/a/6bozT

The cooldown time off Meta is super important for the spec to play right which is why it's prioritized first and pushes Anguish back.

IIRC as of a while ago Rage was pretty much better than Inner Demons in almost every valid situation and the minor traits around it are also better for dps as well.

[Deleted]

Easiest fix to their animation cancelling etc. (imho anyways) and somewhat awkardness of Momentun would be to let Momentum only benefit from Fel Rush and increasing its duration to 6 seconds as opposed to 4 to compensate for VR loss. Likewise it would free up VR as actually being a "oh shit - retreat" type of escape and hence movement mechanic. Strafing side by side using Fel Rush would arguably be manageable by most people, and those using VR talent for Resource gain over time could still choose to use it accordingly, it would however make that talent less mandatory for Momentum.

[Crits-N-Gigglz]

How bout BiS relics?

[jayinjersey]

Here's a bland list of the weeks between Pre-Order and Legion for trinkets:




I only did the heroic ones as I doubt a lot of people are still farming Mythic...and if they are whether they will be bringing a new DH.


Ok...odd image isn't posting. but this link should work: http://pasteboard.co/lzYEFzIx.jpg

[the boar]

i remember when disengage required combat to be used, finding critters to auto-shot so i could disengage to speed up running through indoor areas.. i was so happy when they removed that combat requirement!

but yeah, jumping to spin and shoot without losing your directional travel (hmm, momentum!) as well as learning to spin and disengage to safety.. these are things hunters have been doing for years.. the first one, since the game bloody began!
i accept not everyone has played a hunter, but it does strongly reinforce the likeliness that fel rush/vengeful retreat or the momentum talent (beyond damage % or buff timer, at least) are not going to be changed just because "ew i don't like having to turn my camera in combat."

if you don't like it, don't play it. it is really as simple as that. and if you still want to argue.. then you are a lost cause i guess.

Easiest fix to their animation cancelling etc. (imho anyways)

i think 99% of people are not bothering to use the glide "animation cancel" of VR anymore.. it is more fiddly than just positioning yourself to land in a suitable location tbh.

[Sangomah]

i remember when disengage required combat to be used, finding critters to auto-shot so i could disengage to speed up running through indoor areas.. i was so happy when they removed that combat requirement!

but yeah, jumping to spin and shoot without losing your directional travel (hmm, momentum!) as well as learning to spin and disengage to safety.. these are things hunters have been doing for years.. the first one, since the game bloody began!
i accept not everyone has played a hunter, but it does strongly reinforce the likeliness that fel rush/vengeful retreat or the momentum talent (beyond damage % or buff timer, at least) are not going to be changed just because "ew i don't like having to turn my camera in combat."

if you don't like it, don't play it. it is really as simple as that. and if you still want to argue.. then you are a lost cause i guess.



i think 99% of people are not bothering to use the glide "animation cancel" of VR anymore.. it is more fiddly than just positioning yourself to land in a suitable location tbh.

I do hope we can abuse it like the windwall on Al'akir in Cata

[Qck]

i remember when disengage required combat to be used, finding critters to auto-shot so i could disengage to speed up running through indoor areas.. i was so happy when they removed that combat requirement!

but yeah, jumping to spin and shoot without losing your directional travel (hmm, momentum!) as well as learning to spin and disengage to safety.. these are things hunters have been doing for years.. the first one, since the game bloody began!
i accept not everyone has played a hunter, but it does strongly reinforce the likeliness that fel rush/vengeful retreat or the momentum talent (beyond damage % or buff timer, at least) are not going to be changed just because "ew i don't like having to turn my camera in combat."

if you don't like it, don't play it. it is really as simple as that. and if you still want to argue.. then you are a lost cause i guess.



i think 99% of people are not bothering to use the glide "animation cancel" of VR anymore.. it is more fiddly than just positioning yourself to land in a suitable location tbh.

Except disengage didn't give you a damage buff and wasn't meant to be used on cool down to maximise uptime on it for DPS.

I don't think anyone has a problem with using tricks like that to enable getting on target quicker, they have a problem with movement abilities being used on CD for single target DPS.

Just imagine if Blink was part of a Mages' DPS rotation, or Disengage for Hunters. That would be ridiculous, right? That's the issue people have.

And it's not a case of don't like it don't play it. If that's the sort of narrow minded attitude you take then it's not the guys wanting to have a legitimate discussion about these mechanics that are a lost cause.