Legion Overview: The Great, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Wyrt]

I wouldn't say artifacts are great. It just doesn't feel that great to stack up 50k artifact points to gain 1% crit or 1% increased chance to proc Arcane Missiles.

[miffy23]

I wouldn't say artifacts are great. It just doesn't feel that great to stack up 50k artifact points to gain 1% crit or 1% increased chance to proc Arcane Missiles.

It's a long term character progression meta.
Ever played other MMOs with these systems? It's what they're supposed to do, give you something long term to sink your teeth into, or rather, make everything you do count towards something, instead of just being filler.

It's not supposed to be equivalent to the talent system proper, where every choice is supposed to make a significant difference. It's small, incremental gains, like the Paragon system in Diablo, AA in Age of Conan, etc.

Sure that won't feel great for everyone, and not everyone loves long grinds. But there are other things in Legion that give faster gratification for those people, and you don't really need to maximize and fill out your artifact for anything but competitive raiding and PvP.

[Wyrt]

It's a long term character progression meta.
Ever played other MMOs with these systems? It's what they're supposed to do, give you something long term to sink your teeth into, or rather, make everything you do count towards something, instead of just being filler.

I would say 1% increased chance to proc Arcane Missiles is the definition of filler.

It's not supposed to be equivalent to the talent system proper, where every choice is supposed to make a significant difference. It's small, incremental gains, like the Paragon system in Diablo, AA in Age of Conan, etc.

Sure that won't feel great for everyone, and not everyone loves long grinds. But there are other things in Legion that give faster gratification for those people, and you don't really need to maximize and fill out your artifact for anything but competitive raiding and PvP.

It's just not fun to spend a days grinding points to get something that's effectively pointless. And you have to slog through these pointless traits to get to the ones that are actually good.

[miffy23]

It's not pointless. It makes a big difference over time.

Like I said, it doesn't appeal to everyone. I rather have a meta to work towards that gives me a little bit for every bit of time played, than nothing.

[Wyrt]

It's not pointless. It makes a big difference over time.

Like I said, it doesn't appeal to everyone. I rather have a meta to work towards that gives me a little bit for every bit of time played, than nothing.

I didn't like paragon levels in D3 either. It just doesn't feel good or rewarding to do a bunch of work for something so incredibly minor.

[miffy23]

I didn't like paragon levels in D3 either. It just doesn't feel good or rewarding to do a bunch of work for something so incredibly minor.

I like it.
It's something in the background to keep everything meaningful. Maybe it just depends on your perspective - for me, it doesn't feel like something I have to work hard for, it's something that I just "get" for playing the game.
Or to put it differently: the goal of the game is not to get 20/20 in your secondary trait. That's just something that happens along the way.

[Fistfury]

This was a fantastic post. I agree with everything here, based on my beta playtime. I'm so tired of the whiny obnoxious melodrama filled posts with no substantiation. Kudos @miffy23

[Deleted]

- Mythic+: While i absolutely LOVE this concept, we will run into real issues with rostering... Gear that is dropped in those will quickly become requirement for Mythic raids, but in a standard mythic raid, you will have only 2 tanks and 4-5 healers in a 25-30 people roster. This means that there can only really be 2 internal groups (limited by tanks) and if you find others, you will be limited by the amount of healers eventually, too. We will have to see how this pans out.

Eh? In a 30 people roster you think it's impossible to find 2 melee who can semi-competently tank? Nobody has a tank offspec? What if one of your two only tanks gets hit by a car or something, do you /gdisband or what.

[MasterHamster]

I didn't like paragon levels in D3 either. It just doesn't feel good or rewarding to do a bunch of work for something so incredibly minor.

Sure, it's minor, but that's the thing. It's very subconscious. Just like in D3, if you're out trying to find a certain piece of gear but you're unlucky, you'll still know that even though you didn't attain your "goal", your character gained SOMETHING in the form of artifact power.

For me, that is the difference between for example, LFR feeling godawful or okay. Sure, I didn't get that particular item for that slot I've been unlucky with, but I got rep, or a special currency, or something else. You never completely feel like you accomplished absolutely nothing due to bad luck.

In short, incredibly minor, or nothing at all.
And Artifacts are designed to be something you work on throughout the expansion, not just the launch patch. Nothing kills MMO progression enjoyment less than feeling like you set out to do something and gained nothing. Sure, there could always theoretically have been "some other system", but this is what it is. In D3 you're feeling progress up to paragon 800 and even after that, all those extra points into primary stats makes a difference over time.

[miffy23]

Eh? In a 30 people roster you think it's impossible to find 2 melee who can semi-competently tank? Nobody has a tank offspec? What if one of your two only tanks gets hit by a car or something, do you /gdisband or what.

Dunno why, but this made me laugh a lot.
"Sorry guys, Frank lost his arm to a woodchuck attack, we're lacking one MT now and will have to disband"

[nazrakin]

Yeah I mostly agree with everything in the OP. Although Id probably say that Class Hall Missions are more innocuous than bad. I dont have a particularly positive or negative opinion on them.

The one aspect of Legion that Im concerned with is the legendaries. There doesnt seem to be any "targetting" method as they originally mentioned. Some are god awful and others pretty much force certain talent choices. Conceptually I love the idea of gear that does more than just add stats but Im not sure this is a good implementation.

[miffy23]

Yeah I mostly agree with everything in the OP. Although Id probably say that Class Hall Missions are more innocuous than bad. I dont have a particularly positive or negative opinion on them.

The one aspect of Legion that Im concerned with is the legendaries. There doesnt seem to be any "targetting" method as they originally mentioned. Some are god awful and others pretty much force certain talent choices. Conceptually I love the idea of gear that does more than just add stats but Im not sure this is a good implementation.

There are "hidden" scaling buffs to increase your chance of getting them over time. The longer you don't get one, the higher your chance of finding one in a world quest cache etc.

Agree that it's a bit awkward if we can't target specific ones, mostly for high end raiding. Will have to see how it plays out on live. Conceptually I have no issue with them.

[nacixems]

Thanks for the Post, great review and read. I agree with most of what you said, only had issues with some of the ugly/bad but for the most part, spot on. well written and thought out.

[miffy23]

This was a fantastic post. I agree with everything here, based on my beta playtime. I'm so tired of the whiny obnoxious melodrama filled posts with no substantiation. Kudos @miffy23

Thanks. I felt exactly like you so I tried to sum up what's actually happening in Legion with a pro/con instead of cherrypicking this or that and praising it over the moon or bitching.

[AvCloudy]

- Crafting. I disagree that Legion will make them more fun. They are immensely grindy with the amount of materials you need and the "rare BOP resource" is actually so widespread that it is not a constraint at all any more. The rare resource from gathering professions is much much rarer and therefore they will win out again.

What do you mean by this? Blood of Sargeras isn't going to be the gating to crafting, its going to be something like Frost Lotus for herbing professions?

[Al Gorefiend]

The content released in patches are what matter to me.

- - - Updated - - -

What do you mean by this? Blood of Sargeras isn't going to be the gating to crafting, its going to be something like Frost Lotus for herbing professions?

You get it from multiple sources other than gathering professions now. From combat with a shoulder enchant, world quests, dungeons too I think.

[nazrakin]

There are "hidden" scaling buffs to increase your chance of getting them over time. The longer you don't get one, the higher your chance of finding one in a world quest cache etc.

Agree that it's a bit awkward if we can't target specific ones, mostly for high end raiding. Will have to see how it plays out on live. Conceptually I have no issue with them.

Yeah, Im aware of the hidden buff. That is why the wildly varying power levels is worrisome. If I finally get a legendary after months on my Enh Sham and its those crummy legs, thatll be extremely deflating.

[miffy23]

Yeah, Im aware of the hidden buff. That is why the wildly varying power levels is worrisome. If I finally get a legendary after months on my Enh Sham and its those crummy legs, thatll be extremely deflating.

Aye hopefully the RNG won't be too annoying for raid progression. On the plus side there's also more excitement to drops, imo, with Titanforged and the Legendary hunt in world quest caches and Mythic+ chests.

[Deleted]

What do you mean by this? Blood of Sargeras isn't going to be the gating to crafting, its going to be something like Frost Lotus for herbing professions?

If it stays like it is in Beta, there are so many sources of Blood of Sargeras that it actually isn't really the gating resource. For some recipes you need e.g., Felwort (Herb) or Infernal Brimstone (Mining), and you can only get those from World Quests. Those world quests only show up every 2-3 days and you get 5-6. At least for Felwort you also have the chance to get a seed in addition that yields another 3-5.
So effectively, you get around 5-10 Felwort every 2-3 days, but you can farm Blood of Sargeras in heroic dungeons all day long to get 20-30 or more a day.

[miffy23]

If it stays like it is in Beta, there are so many sources of Blood of Sargeras that it actually isn't really the gating resource. For some recipes you need e.g., Felwort (Herb) or Infernal Brimstone (Mining), and you can only get those from World Quests. Those world quests only show up every 2-3 days and you get 5-6. At least for Felwort you also have the chance to get a seed in addition that yields another 3-5.
So effectively, you get around 5-10 Felwort every 2-3 days, but you can farm Blood of Sargeras in heroic dungeons all day long to get 20-30 or more a day.

I really like that a) gathering and b) world quests are heavily tied into crafting and especially making crafting profitable. The system of standing in your garrison and getting mats "for free" was beyond horrible for the game.