Black Desert

[Deleted]

You really don't know what p2w is. It's when you can buy gear with real money that is better than available for in-game currency. That's pay to win. If everyone gets the same gear - there's no win.

person A is fighting person B. Person B has better gear and wins. Person A spends real money on cash shop items and sells those through for currency. Person A buys good/best gear with the currency acquired, which was gotten through spending real cash in the first place. Person A outgears person B and wins.

[Manhands]

So be weary of any mmo where you can buy the best gear with a currency. That's why WoW's token isn't my personal definition of P2W. The AH doesn't have the best gear. Boss drops (and mythic caches/pvp crates) have the best gear. No way to buy them.

[Deleted]

You can either grind; Or pay in order to bypass the grind. No one will have an playing-field advantage over the other.

You are missing the people who grind AND pay. Those players will be at least twice ahead of anyone else (and since it can take few thousand hours to get really good gear, getting there in double speed is a massive deal)

BDO has way more complex item progression system than what WoW does.

WoW: You show up to raid once a week and hope RNGeesus to drop the item for you.

BDO: You kill bosses 100+ times and hope for a single item drop (or pay 100+ million for it) and after that you pay 3 billion to get it maxed out. (3 bil grinded = minimum 300 hours of nonstop grind) And this is just for base equipment, accessories can cost easily 5x more (2 earrings, 2 rings, belt, neck, count from that).

Also, in WoW gear is basically useless unless you care about your warcraftlogs epeen ranking. In BDO gear is everything. You grind much faster and can use spots others can't and can PK anyone who has less than 20 AP of you.

[Ealyssa]

person A is fighting person B. Person B has better gear and wins. Person A spends real money on cash shop items and sells those through for currency. Person A buys good/best gear with the currency acquired, which was gotten through spending real cash in the first place. Person A outgears person B and wins.

He's just a troll, blatant now.

IRL money increase power in game, that's all that matter. Let him defend his game like a good boy.

[IIamaKing]

Where does the best gear come from? Players? Then it's not p2w. If it came from the store - that would be p2w.

Being able to exchange real world currency for ingame currency that can then be used to buy BiS gear is p2w, doenst matter if the gear was crafted by a player or dropped by a boss or bought directly from the store.

Being able to exchange real dollars for in game player power advances is ptw.

[Edge-]

Listening through the video from the other page...

People considered cash shop pets that loot for you P2W?

"Cancerous RNG gear upgrades" - did nobody look into the game beforehand? Has nobody played a Korean MMO? That's pretty bog standard for how most Korean MMO's handle gear progression.

"Endless grindy nature" - Again, did nobody realize this was a Korean MMO, and a sandbox at that?

I get that things like the reduction in AH fees helps you progress, but I'm still not seeing the "P2W" element here. It reduces the amount of time you need to spend farming gold, sure. But you can still never purchase more power than can be earned in-game as far as I know. Then again, it feels like the definition for P2W is so watered down from what it originally was (literally buying more powerful buffs/gear from the cash shop than you could ever earn in-game) that it's largely meaningless.

"False advertising" - lol, welcome to online games? Things change, it sucks, but they change.

He's talking about a lot of these BDO changes impacting the industry as if they're new, or at least new in successful MMO's, and they're not. Korean imports, both those that have been successes and those that have failed, have been bringing those mechanics/systems/designs over for well a decade now. If Western developers wanted to adopt them, they would have long ago.

His commentary about boycotting is fine, but the problem is that it's never going to happen. People decry RNG lockboxes in every MMO they're in (but are totally fine with them in OW for some reason, but that's a side rant) but guess what? MMO's keep releasing them because they generate tons of revenue. Not sure what he thinks the change petition matters, those are a running joke.

I'm still not convinced the game is P2W at all. Toeing the gray area, sure, but not P2W.

[Advent]

I'm still not convinced the game is P2W at all. Toeing the gray area, sure, but not P2W.

Well then isn't it a great thing that nobody needs to convince you? Other people believe it is, by their own interpretation of the phrase, and that's all that matters.

[Deleted]

How are people comparing this to gett carried through raids in WoW?
A scrub who gets his ass carried through a raid is not ahead of a raider in any sense because of the raid having a weekly lockout. You ll be clearing the raid just as many times as the scrub.
Also seeing as how these carries cost a fuck ton of money you d need an absurd amount of money to be able to get carried enough times through full mythic runs to get the gear that you actually want. Also PvE gear in WoW does not impact PvP so another persons power will not directly negatively impact you.

[Elim Garak]

Being able to exchange real world currency for ingame currency that can then be used to buy BiS gear is p2w, doenst matter if the gear was crafted by a player or dropped by a boss or bought directly from the store.

Being able to exchange real dollars for in game player power advances is ptw.

It does matter how the gear is acquired, if you cannot buy it directly from the vendor in unlimited amount then it is not pay to win. It also matters if gear is available to all or exclusive to RMT, and in turn it matters if it is better for RMT than in game.

So no, there is no pay to win in BD

[Kazgrel]

Listening through the video from the other page...

People considered cash shop pets that loot for you P2W?

"Cancerous RNG gear upgrades" - did nobody look into the game beforehand? Has nobody played a Korean MMO? That's pretty bog standard for how most Korean MMO's handle gear progression.

"Endless grindy nature" - Again, did nobody realize this was a Korean MMO, and a sandbox at that?

I get that things like the reduction in AH fees helps you progress, but I'm still not seeing the "P2W" element here. It reduces the amount of time you need to spend farming gold, sure. But you can still never purchase more power than can be earned in-game as far as I know. Then again, it feels like the definition for P2W is so watered down from what it originally was (literally buying more powerful buffs/gear from the cash shop than you could ever earn in-game) that it's largely meaningless.

"False advertising" - lol, welcome to online games? Things change, it sucks, but they change.

He's talking about a lot of these BDO changes impacting the industry as if they're new, or at least new in successful MMO's, and they're not. Korean imports, both those that have been successes and those that have failed, have been bringing those mechanics/systems/designs over for well a decade now. If Western developers wanted to adopt them, they would have long ago.

His commentary about boycotting is fine, but the problem is that it's never going to happen. People decry RNG lockboxes in every MMO they're in (but are totally fine with them in OW for some reason, but that's a side rant) but guess what? MMO's keep releasing them because they generate tons of revenue. Not sure what he thinks the change petition matters, those are a running joke.

I'm still not convinced the game is P2W at all. Toeing the gray area, sure, but not P2W.

I find the whole "it's a Korean MMO" excuse/stereotype to be comical. So just because it's Korean, it gets a free pass for being shit?

BDO is very much more P2W than the WoW token equivalent. Even the selling of whatever that cash shop pet in wow back during Cata didn't let people get BiS raid gear unless they paid several hundred USD and sold enough pets to afford multiple carry runs. Could that be called pay to win? Sure, but that's a hell of a stretch of the definition of P2W.

[Deleted]

Money is useless in WoW.. People with 10 million gold can be worse than others with 1k. There simply is nothing to spend the money on to improve your character.

That is complete opposite in BDO. The more money you have the better geared you will be.

[Kyanion]

It does matter how the gear is acquired, if you cannot buy it directly from the vendor in unlimited amount then it is not pay to win. It also matters if gear is available to all or exclusive to RMT, and in turn it matters if it is better for RMT than in game.

So no, there is no pay to win in BD

And not everyone will share your view of 'pay to win'. I know I sure as hell don't.

[Baconeggcheese]

Money is useless in WoW.. People with 10 million gold can be worse than others with 1k. There simply is nothing to spend the money on to improve your character.

That is complete opposite in BDO. The more money you have the better geared you will be.

Well in fairness you can indirectly buy gear with gold by buying the aforementioned runs, it just doesn't really get you anything. Being geared in wow isn't "winning", winning is overcoming the challenges that get you the gear in the first place.

Where in BDO it gives you a significant advantage over other players in a game that's about pvp and capturing points in the world. In bdo it will become mandatory if you want to be competitive, whereas in wow it literally gets you nowhere.

[Elim Garak]

And not everyone will share your view of 'pay to win'. I know I sure as hell don't.

View? It's a fact. You don't share my facts? Tough luck, for you.

Well in fairness you can indirectly buy gear with gold by buying the aforementioned runs, it just doesn't really get you anything. Being geared in wow isn't "winning", winning is overcoming the challenges that get you the gear in the first place.

Where in BDO it gives you a significant advantage over other players in a game that's about pvp and capturing points in the world. In bdo it will become mandatory if you want to be competitive, whereas in wow it literally gets you nowhere.

What kind of nonsense is this? Buying cosmetic items for cash and selling them on AH to get in-game currency to buy gear on AH will become mandatory exactly HOW? How do you even imagine it working? Have you ever heard about supply and demand? If you had 1000000000000000000000000000000 in game currency can you buy all the gear you need? Can everyone if everyone had 10000000000000000000000000000000000 in game currency buy all the gear they ALL need?

Something tells me it's a no, there's not enough gear offered on AH to satisfy the demand, and whence does the gear supply come from? Players who acquire it by in-game means. Which is controlled and not guaranteed. So how is it different from buying raid-runs? At least with raid runs you play the game to get the item instead of just sitting in-front of AH clicking the REFRESH button.

[Deleted]

Have you ever heard about supply and demand? If you had 1000000000000000000000000000000 in game currency can you buy all the gear you need?

If you know how BDO works, yes you can. Let me tell you:

1. Buy the item (there is always supply for base items, armor / weapon don't break so you only need 1 of each item)
2. Buy enhancement materials (+1-15 = Black Stones, 120-200k each, +16-20 = Concentrated stones, 2 mil armor 6 mil weapon)
3. Throw stones into armor until it upgrades. If you fail, repairing cost around 7.5m per fail.
4. Full +19 / 20 gear after few billion silver spent.

Accessories are destroyed on fail so they are much more difficult to enchant. Of course you can protect them with Cron Stones that cost 1 million each (and you need few hundred of them later on, thousands for last ranks) and they still have chance to degrade when using those..
Yeah, some BiS accessories don't have endless supply but you can buy those from Night Vendor with some luck.
If they are sold out it is possible to pre-order them from AH and the highers bidder wins when one is listed. So silver wins again.

[Kyanion]

View? It's a fact. You don't share my facts? Tough luck, for you.

You believe it to be a fact. I believe you are full of shit. You think your OPINION is fact.

[IIamaKing]

It does matter how the gear is acquired, if you cannot buy it directly from the vendor in unlimited amount then it is not pay to win. It also matters if gear is available to all or exclusive to RMT, and in turn it matters if it is better for RMT than in game.

So no, there is no pay to win in BD

OK, in your world, in your head, its not p2w. The rest of dont live in fantasy land. Real world money exchanged for in game player power is P2W.

[Baconeggcheese]

Ya'll realize you're trying to reason with elim garak right? You'd have a better chance of getting in direct contact with the people running BDO and getting them to change their business model than having a reasoned discussion with elim garak.

[Edge-]

OK, in your world, in your head, its not p2w. The rest of dont live in fantasy land. Real world money exchanged for in game player power is P2W.

To be fair, P2W was a term that originated in MMO's where you could literally buy power directly from the cash shop that far exceeded anything available in-game. It was about buying, for example, Awesome Sword +10 when you could only get Awesome Sword +3 in-game.

This is a case of being able to purchase the best in-game gear more quickly via selling store bought costumes, so one can never acquire more power than is available via crafted gear anyways.

It doesn't fall into the traditional P2W category, but definitely does fall into a gray/potentially shady area.

[Elim Garak]

If you know how BDO works, yes you can. Let me tell you

Why did you skip the rest?

You believe it to be a fact. I believe you are full of shit. You think your OPINION is fact.

It's not an opinion it's fact.

OK, in your world, in your head, its not p2w. The rest of dont live in fantasy land. Real world money exchanged for in game player power is P2W.

Lol, no, what I say is the reality. Anyone who argues with that - lives in a fantasy land in which any game for which you pay money to play is P2W. like wow for instance it's outrageously pay to win because without paying you cannot even get past level 20 and any scrub who paid Blizzard and got to level 100 can kill you in FFA PvP areas. Ain't it funny?