PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[Zeds Dead]

I enjoy the momentum playstyle. Don't pretend it is a complicated spec to play...especially now that animation cancelling is gone.

I enjoyed the demon blade massive fury spike dumps playstyle.

Liking momentum doesn't make you a real demon hunter. It makes you a guy who likes one set of talents.

No one should be happy with how many horrible talents we have in our tree. We need more.options and variety. I would like the option to mix it up over a 2 year expansion and right now we don't have that.

[Schizoide]

Nerfing Fel Rush baseline isn't going to make anything better tbh. The issue is how Fel Rush is treated baseline and how Fel Mastery / Momentum tie into it. If you nerfed Fel Rush baseline, I mean it would technically solve the issue but if you don't talent for it, it would feel unfun. That's not a situation they want to run into. If you tweak the talents that make it good, you can still go a different build but still have Fel Rush feel impactful, y'know?

You already can take different talents-- even without Fel Mastery and Momentum, you should be using Fel Rush on cooldown, because it's free and deals strong damage. I don't see any solution other than dropping Fel Rush's baseline damage.

For me at least, it would still be perfectly fun to use at 1/4 the current damage. You'd just use it primarily for movement, not DPS.

I honestly don't think this is going to change. And that's fine-- I don't have to personally enjoy every spec. It's just important that people know going in that if they want to play Havoc, they will be constantly repositioning. Lots of people go in expecting an easy spec, because that's what Blizzard told us it would be. But it really isn't that, even without worrying about micromanaging the Momentum window. It can be very difficult to reposition in this manner on a raid boss and not die while still properly executing the encounter mechanics.

[Xaenne]

Fel rush was one of the first abilities we started with. I think you simply don't understand that it's supposed to be a very central ability in the havoc toolkit. Both for moving and dealing damage. As i said, just play something else if you want to sit behind the boss and spam 123 over and over. I think having to pay attention to surroundings while doing dps is a good thing.

I understand full well what I am talking about. Just because it was designed early doesn't make it any more important than any other ability in the kit. It's the fact that no other button feels as impactful as Fel Rush and that's just not fun. I played Arms Warrior for a long while - you know how fun it is to base your playstyle around one ability that impacts every other ability? Not very fun.

Also, there you go again saying, "No one is forcing you to play a class, but just play something else." People have different ways of playing their class, man. I'm perfectly fine with using Fel Rush, as I've said before. It's a bit of the movement aspect in relation to newer / more casual players who aren't going to be taken in groups for even the potential of dying a lot as well as the issue of just how much damage Fel Rush does in it's current state. Both of those make players lean towards Fel Rush overall - and while that is a good thing for the ability to be wanted to be used, it's going to cause issues later on down the road.

You already can take different talents-- even without Fel Mastery and Momentum, you should be using Fel Rush on cooldown, because it's free and deals strong damage. I don't see any solution other than dropping Fel Rush's baseline damage.

I mean, the biggest reason why Fel Rush is a popular topic right now is because talents make it drastically ahead of other competition.

[Krille]

You already can take different talents-- even without Fel Mastery and Momentum, you should be using Fel Rush on cooldown, because it's free and deals strong damage. I don't see any solution other than dropping Fel Rush's baseline damage.

For me at least, it would still be perfectly fun to use at 1/4 the current damage. You'd just use it primarily for movement, not DPS.

I don't find it fun to make a class into another class. We don't need another warrior wannabe. Let classes be unique and play a class that suit you better. Why do people want to change core abilities of a spec because it doesnt suit them? As i said, CORE ability. Okay if it was something minor, but you simply don't like the concept if you don't want to use mobility to deal damage. Literally all the other melee classes sit behind the boss the whole fight, play that if you don't enjoy moving.

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I understand full well what I am talking about. Just because it was designed early doesn't make it any more important than any other ability in the kit. It's the fact that no other button feels as impactful as Fel Rush and that's just not fun. I played Arms Warrior for a long while - you know how fun it is to base your playstyle around one ability that impacts every other ability? Not very fun.

Also, there you go again saying, "No one is forcing you to play a class, but just play something else." People have different ways of playing their class, man. I'm perfectly fine with using Fel Rush, as I've said before. It's a bit of the movement aspect in relation to newer / more casual players who aren't going to be taken in groups for even the potential of dying a lot as well as the issue of just how much damage Fel Rush does in it's current state. Both of those make players lean towards Fel Rush overall - and while that is a good thing for the ability to be wanted to be used, it's going to cause issues later on down the road.

You simply don't realize that removing damage from Fel Rush will just leave it unused for a majority of the fight, no bossfight have constant moving. Which means DH will be just another sit behind boss and deal damage kind of class. And every class shouldn't cater to every player (casual or hardcore) that's what Blizzard has been doing the last 5 years and it's made class differentiation non-existent. When we finally get a class that can offer a different playstyle people are out wanting it removed. Then play the class differently! Fuck sake. Don't want it removed because you don't like it, that's dumb.

[Schizoide]

Literally all the other melee classes sit behind the boss the whole fight, play that if you don't enjoy moving.

You always see this same silly argument on WoW forums. "Don't like it? Reroll". "Don't like it? Quit." It's just that poster being a jerk.

I want to improve DH. And I believe it would be improved by offering the player the choice to constantly reposition, rather than making it mandatory. Not removed-- optional.

[Xaenne]

I don't find it fun to make a class into another class. We don't need another warrior wannabe. Let classes be unique and play a class that suit you better. Why do people want to change core abilities of a spec because it doesnt suit them? As i said, CORE ability. Okay if it was something minor, but you simply don't like the concept if you don't want to use mobility to deal damage. Literally all the other melee classes sit behind the boss the whole fight, play that if you don't enjoy moving.

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You simply don't realize that removing damage from Fel Rush will just leave it unused for a majority of the fight, no bossfight have constant moving. Which means DH will be just another sit behind boss and deal damage kind of class. And every class shouldn't cater to every player (casual or hardcore) that's what Blizzard has been doing the last 5 years and it's made class differentiation non-existent. When we finally get a class that can offer a different playstyle people are out wanting it removed. Then play the class differently! Fuck sake. Don't want it removed because you don't like it, that's dumb.

You keep acting like tuning numbers is going to murder the feel of the class and ruin the ability. Take it down a notch or two, man. It's not going to ruin Fel Rush by adjusting numbers to bring it in line with the other abilities. No one here has been advocating to make Demon Hunters play like another class. Also, no. A DPS ability will be used on cooldown to do DPS. It's not going to be like fucking Hamstring where it does literally like 10 damage. You're overreacting about what we're saying.

[Krille]

You always see this same silly argument on WoW forums. "Don't like it? Reroll". "Don't like it? Quit." It's just that poster being a jerk.

I want to improve DH. And I believe it would be improved by offering the player the choice to constantly reposition, rather than making it mandatory. Not removed-- optional.

But this is literally a case of people wanting a class to change their core playstyle because you don't like it when there are several other melee classes around that you can play instead that offer the sit still behind a boss playstyle. You're being a jerk thinking your view of the class is the improved one, typical spoiled wow-player.

[Puzzony]

Fel rush was one of the first abilities we started with. I think you simply don't understand that it's supposed to be a very central ability in the havoc toolkit. Both for moving and dealing damage. As i said, just play something else if you want to sit behind the boss and spam 123 over and over. I think having to pay attention to surroundings while doing dps is a good thing.

The problem with fel rush, that on a fight where you shouldn't have to move around because of certain boss mechanics (we have seen a lot of like this in the past, noone can deny it), you're easily bound to wipe your raid, and people will comdemn you for doing so.

[Krille]

You keep acting like tuning numbers is going to murder the feel of the class and ruin the ability. Take it down a notch or two, man. It's not going to ruin Fel Rush by adjusting numbers to bring it in line with the other abilities. No one here has been advocating to make Demon Hunters play like another class.

Yes it is. Yes you are. It's exactly what you are doing. Removing the damage means nobody in their right mind would use it unless you had to move and that's very often a small portion of a fight. Which means you will just remove a core ability "because it's tedious" to you personally. Have some perspective.

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The problem with fel rush, that on a fight where you shouldn't have to move around because of certain boss mechanics (we have seen a lot of like this in the past, noone can deny it), you're easily bound to wipe your raid, and people will comdemn you for doing so.

And rightfully so, if a boss demands you to sit tight do you think i'll move anyway? It's not like you'd mindlessly use the ability! You don't need to be the best on every encounter.

[Xaenne]

Yes it is. Yes you are. It's exactly what you are doing. Removing the damage means nobody in their right mind would use it unless you had to move and that's very often a small portion of a fight. Which means you will just remove a core ability "because it's tedious" to you personally. Have some perspective.

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And rightfully so, if a boss demands you to sit tight do you think i'll move anyway? It's not like you'd mindlessly use the ability! You don't need to be the best on every encounter.

How is me saying, "Yeah let's tweak the numbers to BRING IT IN LINE with other abilities" FUCKING ADVOCATING TO REMOVE FEL RUSH COMPLETELY? You are actually just being nonsensical. I don't understand why I have to keep reiterating that I like Fel Rush and what it does. It's a fucking awesome ability. However, it just does too much damage. God forbid your favourite damage ability gets slighty toned down.

Oh, and for those who are trying to be competitive with the class, losing a 20% damage buff, a major dps ability and at least +25 fury generation, yeah not pressing Fel Rush is a big deal. That's like telling a Fury Warrior not to press Bloodthirst to Enrage because the mechanic coming up means increased damage taken. No, that's not how that works at all. There are a fair amount of boss encounters in Legion that punish movement. You are going to end up not pressing Fel Rush a good amount of the time if your mentality is, "If a boss demands you to sit tight" then to do so.



My main point is that, as core as it may be, Fel Rush simply does too much damage and provides too much utility in a 20% damage increase and fury generation in comparison to other abilities in the Demon Hunters kit on a consistent use [I automatically included the traits from Fel Mastery / Momentum as they are the main reason of discussion].

[Puzzony]

Yes it is. Yes you are. It's exactly what you are doing. Removing the damage means nobody in their right mind would use it unless you had to move and that's very often a small portion of a fight. Which means you will just remove a core ability "because it's tedious" to you personally. Have some perspective.

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And rightfully so, if a boss demands you to sit tight do you think i'll move anyway? It's not like you'd mindlessly use the ability! You don't need to be the best on every encounter.

But if fel rush is part of the core part of the dps rotation, you're gimped if you're not using it because of the boss mechanics, either way it is a big "no win" situation.

[Schizoide]

The Momentum playstyle is fine, but the player should have to opt-in to it. It shouldn't be baseline, and it shouldn't be mandatory. Right now you can't even opt-out. If you play a DH, you Fel Rush on cooldown or you suck.

[Deleted]

I dont understand the Problem with Fel Rush here, it IS a core mechanic to deal DMG with it in the first place, then move with it second. Why should there be another option to that? Imagine you play Firemage, and then u say: "Uh Blizz, I dont like the reactive gameplay with all those hotstreak Proccs, pls give us an optional build...." wont happen, and then it is right to say, play another class then if u dont like the core mechanic?. Same with Felrush, its a core gameplay aspect of the DH, and with talents you can force/improve that even more with Felmastery/Momentum, but even if u dont use those talents, u gonna Felrush on CD.

The real choice is Momentum/FE/Nemesis, so I dont understand the discussion about FR now.

[Ctee]

To those still wary, give it a try and practice now. The Momentum playstyle is the funnest I've ever had playing any class before. You're never a turret. Always thinking, always moving. I can't wait to actually unlock the talent. It's not as bad as some may think. My advice is to practice all day and get good with this. I intend on leveling with the Momentum build anyways.

[Xaenne]

The Momentum playstyle is fine, but the player should have to opt-in to it. It shouldn't be baseline, and it shouldn't be mandatory. Right now you can't even opt-out. If you play a DH, you Fel Rush on cooldown or you suck.

Thank you for understanding. You accurately portray my problem with Fel Rush simply.

I dont understand the Problem with Fel Rush here, it IS a core mechanic to deal DMG with it in the first place, then move with it second. Why should there be another option to that? Imagine you play Firemage, and then u say: "Uh Blizz, I dont like the reactive gameplay with all those hotstreak Proccs, pls give us an optional build...." wont happen, and then it is right to say, play another class then if u dont like the core mechanic?. Same with Felrush, its a core gameplay aspect of the DH, and with talents you can force/improve that even more with Felmastery/Momentum, but even if u dont use those talents, u gonna Felrush on CD.

The real choice is Momentum/FE/Nemesis, so I dont understand the discussion about FR now.

The problem lies with the fact that there is only one reason talent choice in two trees that make pressing Fel Rush completely mandatory or you don't do nearly as much damage. To piggy back off of your Fire Mage example, imagine that using Pyroblast for Hot Streak increased the damage of the next Pyroblast and would refund the mana cost. That talent instantly makes the ability mandatory. You would never feasibly press Flamestrike on a 3 target fight because, dude, you'd just swap to the other target and Pyroblast. Now imagine a second talent where any Fireball or Fire Blast that proc'd Heating Up or Hot Streak increased all damage you do by 20% for 4s. Those two talents in conjunction is insane and there is feasibly no other choice than those two talents, unless you want to significantly lower your dps. That is the issue Demon Hunters are having.

[Krille]

How is me saying, "Yeah let's tweak the numbers to BRING IT IN LINE with other abilities" FUCKING ADVOCATING TO REMOVE FEL RUSH COMPLETELY? You are actually just being nonsensical. I don't understand why I have to keep reiterating that I like Fel Rush and what it does. It's a fucking awesome ability. However, it just does too much damage. God forbid your favourite damage ability gets slighty toned down.

Oh, and for those who are trying to be competitive with the class, losing a 20% damage buff, a major dps ability and at least +25 fury generation, yeah not pressing Fel Rush is a big deal. That's like telling a Fury Warrior not to press Bloodthirst to Enrage because the mechanic coming up means increased damage taken. No, that's not how that works at all. There are a fair amount of boss encounters in Legion that punish movement. You are going to end up not pressing Fel Rush a good amount of the time if your mentality is, "If a boss demands you to sit tight" then to do so.



My main point is that, as core as it may be, Fel Rush simply does too much damage and provides too much utility in a 20% damage increase and fury generation in comparison to other abilities in the Demon Hunters kit on a consistent use [I automatically included the traits from Fel Mastery / Momentum as they are the main reason of discussion].

Tone it down kid. I've seen many posters advocate to remove the damage entirely because it's "still a mandatory ability if it deals damage". It is, that's why you have to use it accordingly, not be stupid and use it when the fight requires you not to. That's interesting gameplay, having to make decisions that matter.

[Schizoide]

Same with Felrush, its a core gameplay aspect of the DH,

DH is a completely new class; we aren't talking about removing Mortal Strike from Arms here.

I believe the high damage component of Fel Rush shouldn't be core to the ability, because I don't enjoy the constant repositioning. Letting the player opt-in to that playstyle would allow me to enjoy playing a DH.

Lots of specs have major gameplay changes like that in talents. Frost and Marks can opt-out of a pet, Feral can opt-in to being GCD-locked with Moment of Clarity, BM can replace Dire Beast (certainly core!), Havoc can replace Demon's Bite with a passive, etc. All of these have huge implications on gameplay. That's what talents are for.

[Krille]

DH is a completely new class; we aren't talking about removing Mortal Strike from Arms here.

I believe the high damage component of Fel Rush shouldn't be core to the ability, because I don't enjoy the constant repositioning. Letting the player opt-in to that playstyle would allow me to enjoy playing a DH.

Lots of specs have major gameplay changes like that in talents. Frost and Marks can opt-out of a pet, Feral can opt-in to being GCD-locked with Moment of Clarity, BM can replace Dire Beast (certainly core!), Havoc can replace Demon's Bite with a passive, etc. All of these have huge implications on gameplay. That's what talents are for.

Sigh. Demon hunters have in total 4 abilities (with talents) that encourage you to move. You won't like the class if you don't like moving while dealing damage, its the harsh truth. Don't push your own playstyle down others throat when there are other classes to play that offer the one you like. This is the only class that wants you to stay on the move while dpsing. Let it stay that way.

[Schizoide]

Don't push your own playstyle down others throat

There may be an issue with reading comprehension here. Do you understand that I'm talking about making it an option?

[Xaenne]

Tone it down kid. I've seen many posters advocate to remove the damage entirely because it's "still a mandatory ability if it deals damage". It is, that's why you have to use it accordingly, not be stupid and use it when the fight requires you not to. That's interesting gameplay, having to make decisions that matter.

You can't just "use it accordingly" when you have it talented that way. You will lose a significant amount of your damage. The main thing people look at is how much damage you are putting out. If your damage isn't high, why are you there?

I agree that decisions matter and how to Fel Rush matters. I don't agree that Fel Rush should be this major ability that dictates how well you are doing on the damage meters. That's stupid to put all of your eggs in one basket.

Sigh. Demon hunters have in total 4 abilities (with talents) that encourage you to move. You won't like the class if you don't like moving while dealing damage, its the harsh truth. Don't push your own playstyle down others throat when there are other classes to play that offer the one you like. This is the only class that wants you to stay on the move while dpsing. Let it stay that way.

That's nice, but one of those abilities totally dictates your damage. That's not a healthy balance for the class at all. Let it be an option if you want it to be that major ability, but don't make it mandatory right off of the bat.