PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[Schizoide]

Because it's impossible to balance things like this without making another talent the number one choice, effectively killing the other choice.

I'm really not trying to insult you here victork8, but this comes back to reading comprehension again. Like I said earlier on this same page in post 169, it's fine for the Momentum playstyle, using Fel Rush on cooldown, to be the highest damage choice. It just shouldn't be 20% ahead.

@Cold Aralon: I wasn't talking about 15% damage off Fel Rush alone-- I was talking about total performance. Here's what the sims say:

Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile: 190.8k DPS
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush at all: 169.8k (-12%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat at all: 161.5k (-18%)

So if you don't use these movement abilities, you will lose a whopping 18% DPS. And no, picking different talents can't compensate for that.

Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demonic Appetite: 167.5k (-14%)
Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demon Blades: 169.4k (-12%)

And this is why constant repositioning is completely mandatory for Havoc. If the performance difference is over 5%, the alternate playstyle is garbage.

[Deleted]

Heroic charging for rage gen has been a dps cd and optimal playstyle for arms for a while now, excluding WOD.

There is a difference between using charge which automaticly takes you to the target in melee range every 15 seconds and having to use a movement skill ever 3 seconds

[Krille]

I'm really not trying to insult you here victork8, but this comes back to reading comprehension again. Like I said earlier on this same page in post 169, it's fine for the Momentum playstyle, using Fel Rush on cooldown, to be the highest damage choice. It just shouldn't be 20% ahead.

@Cold Aralon: I wasn't talking about 15% damage off Fel Rush alone-- I was talking about total performance. Here's what the sims say:

Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile: 190.8k DPS
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush at all: 169.8k (-12%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat at all: 161.5k (-18%)

So if you don't use these movement abilities, you will lose a whopping 18% DPS. And no, picking different talents can't compensate for that.

Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demonic Appetite: 167.5k (-14%)
Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demon Blades: 169.4k (-12%)

And this is why constant repositioning is completely mandatory for Havoc. If the performance difference is over 5%, the alternate playstyle is garbage.

And you still don't seem to understand that not everyone needs to be following DPS simulations. Particularly those that are playing "for fun" the casuals. If you're a hardcore raider, learn to play with momentum or choose a different class. If you want a third option that is a talent that will challenge fel rush, then we will all be playing that instead. I want to play with fel rush, so i want the talents to stay as they are. It's rather simple actually.

[Deleted]

I'm really not trying to insult you here victork8, but this comes back to reading comprehension again. Like I said earlier on this same page in post 169, it's fine for the Momentum playstyle, using Fel Rush on cooldown, to be the highest damage choice. It just shouldn't be 20% ahead.

@Cold Aralon: I wasn't talking about 15% damage off Fel Rush alone-- I was talking about total performance. Here's what the sims say:

Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile: 190.8k DPS
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush at all: 169.8k (-12%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat at all: 161.5k (-18%)

So if you don't use these movement abilities, you will lose a whopping 18% DPS. And no, picking different talents can't compensate for that.

Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demonic Appetite: 167.5k (-14%)
Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demon Blades: 169.4k (-12%)

And this is why constant repositioning is completely mandatory for Havoc. If the performance difference is over 5%, the alternate playstyle is garbage.

Actually look at my logs. On a 207 second fight with FR (if I remember correctly) with a 10 second CD, you can get 20 in. I only got 18.... I missed two, not used on CD. Those two would give me 50 fury. Let's say I ended a fight at 30 fury plus the 50 from the missed talent is 80. I missed two chaos strikes and two Fel rush casts. A combined total (going by average hit) of 167,100 missed damage. Which after all the calculations means I could have had 38,488 DPS. Which is 917 DPS more. That's still in the 2-3% range. So please tell me again, how did I lose 15% damage when it wasn't even used on CD? For the record, your quote below:

you still need to Fel Rush on cooldown or you're down another 15% total damage.

Edit: for the record you mentioned using it on cooldown. Going by the description of those logs, that's not using them for DPS AT ALL. That is a huge difference of meaning. Are you trying to be misleading on purpose now?


And my final point, if you follow sim craft blindly, then you are doing theorycrafting alllll wrong.

[Jngizu]

I could pick apart that small paragraph of "constructive" debate but I don't want to be rude, not in my nature..... But LOL sure of course you are in the top 100 raiding guilds. What you are saying, does not match that mindset you need. You never addressed my point. There are other talents to pick. If you were a world 100 (LOL) you would know that you will not be using it all the time any way. Every class, every spec has a gameplay that tears the community apart (example seraphim for prot Paladins).

Yeah, let's not insult, instead, let's be a passive-aggressive prick, much better indeed. But hey, done talking with someone who will barely clean raids in HM 6 months after they are released. I made my points, you don't understand them (or more like you seem butt-hurt because I dare criticize your beloved Momentum spec), I absolutely don't care.

INFRACTION

[Deleted]

Yeah, let's not insult, instead, let's be a passive-aggressive prick, much better indeed. But hey, done talking with someone who will barely clean raids in HM 6 months after they are released. I made my points, you don't understand them (or more like you seem butt-hurt because I dare criticize your beloved Momentum spec), I absolutely don't care.

So again, nothing constructive then? Well have a nice day then.

[Schizoide]

@victork8: I still haven't seen an argument from you why constant repositioning shouldn't be optional. You keep returning to the low-quality WoW forum line, "Don't like it? Quit." That isn't an argument at all, it's just being petty.

@Cold Aralon: Did not intend to be misleading. By "on cooldown" I was referring to using Fel Rush as part of your DPS priority, constantly repositioning. That was shorthand for what used to be called the "Momentum playstyle", but since Momentum is actually a small contributor to performance, that doesn't really fit. Anyway, only a robot or a sim could literally use every ability the instant it comes off cooldown.

[jayinjersey]

I'm still of the camp you leave FelMastery and FelRush alone, switch FelBlade and ChaosCleave, and change Blind Fury to refund 50% of Fury when Eye Beam only hits one target. (if needed tweak FBlade and BFury damage)


Gives that row 3 ways to generate Fury now...


Also makes the 102 row the Playstyle change row...giving two AoE abilities use in Single Target, and one Single Target ability use in AoE fights.


Everyone is happy and has a way to play the class that works for them.

[Deleted]

@victork8: I still haven't seen an argument from you why constant repositioning shouldn't be optional. You keep returning to the low-quality WoW forum line, "Don't like it? Quit." That isn't an argument at all, it's just being petty.

@Cold Aralon: Did not intend to be misleading. By "on cooldown" I was referring to using Fel Rush as part of your DPS priority. Only a robot or a sim could literally use every ability the instant it comes off cooldown.

So your theory then is to exclude one of our hardest hitting abilities? For what purpose exactly?

[Schizoide]

Everyone is happy and has a way to play the class that works for them.

With your changes, Havoc would still have to use Fel Rush as part of their DPS priority, constantly repositioning throughout the fight. So no, I would not be happy.

- - - Updated - - -

So your theory then is to exclude one of our hardest hitting abilities? For what purpose exactly?

I don't enjoy the constant repositioning. That playstyle should be available and well-rewarded, as it's more challenging and fits the DH class fantasy. It just shouldn't be so well-rewarded that it's mandatory, as it is right now.

[Deleted]

With your changes, Havoc would still have to use Fel Rush as part of their DPS priority, constantly repositioning throughout the fight. So no, I would not be happy.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't enjoy the constant repositioning. That playstyle should be available, and well-rewarded, as it's more challenging and fits the DH class fantasy. It just shouldn't be mandatory, as it is right now.

Wait let me get this straight, this back and fourth you and I are having, is all because you do not like a core mechanic of a class? That's what it is? Like dots on a warlock? Or stealth on a rogue?

[Schizoide]

Wait let me get this straight, this back and fourth you and I are having, is all because you do not like a core mechanic of a class? That's what it is? Like dots on a warlock? Or stealth on a rogue?

Like I said earlier in the thread, DHs are a new class. We aren't talking about taking Mortal Strike away from Arms. Fel Rush having high baseline damage isn't core to the spec. Nerfing its baseline damage by 75% and giving it back in the Momentum talent isn't in any way comparable to taking Stealth away from rogues and putting it in a talent.

[Black Sand]

Rotational movement is a key element of playing the Demon Hunter class. It's fighting style is essentially that of the wardancer: dancing around one's opponent, fluidly weaving one blade attack into the next, making it seem as if a possessed fighter is performing a viscous and ruthless ritual that involves a lot of blood shed. Dashing in- and out of combat to the beat of war, each move inspiring a (fel) rush into the enthralled combatant.




I don't understand the desire to play this class, while also wishing to be able to opt out of the movement centric combat play. Fel Rush is meant to be used rotationally, regardless of talents chosen. I agree that we need better balance in our talent tree (especially the first row.. wth Blizz????), but asking to opt out of rotational movement is like asking to not use your diseases on your Unholy DK because your talent choices focus on your pet instead.

Fel Rush is a core damage ability. For those who want, you can choose to weave Vengeful Retreat into your playstyle. But regardless of your pick, FR is meant to be used rotationally. By design.

Choice is good, but choice doesn't mean moving away from the center of what this class is about. Even when Blizzard introduces better ways to balance our options in playstyle via our talent tree, I strongly think they should leave the usage of FR as a rotational damage ability.
I also doubt they'd move away from this use of FR this expansion, given their focus on class fantasy..

[Schizoide]

Rotational movement is a key element of playing the Demon Hunter class.

That's correct. I believe it should be optional, that players should be allowed to opt-in (or opt-out) if they prefer not to do that.

[Black Sand]

That's correct. I believe it should be optional, that players should be allowed to opt-in (or opt-out) if they prefer not to do that.

So I've noticed.
I disagree

[jayinjersey]

With your changes, Havoc would still have to use Fel Rush as part of their DPS priority, constantly repositioning throughout the fight. So no, I would not be happy.

Why?

If it didn't give Fury, why would you use it?

I realize it does more DPS than Demon Bite baseline...but that's in a bubble.

If my suggestions went live, DBite while doing less damage would build Fury where Rush would not...


Put it this way.

3 GCD's

FRush; FRush; DBite / 294%+294%+260% | min 20 Fury Gained / Max 30 Fury Gained

DBite; DBite; CStrike / 260%+260%+(275%+440%) | min 40 Fury Gained & 40 Fury used / Max 60 Fury Gained & 20 Fury used


So not factoring the mastery of either CStrike or FRush...looks like second option does more damage and keeps my ass planted where it was.
Plus FBlade could have proced from the 2 DBites, giving my next GCDs even more damage and Fury (assuming the talent changes happened)

[Schizoide]

So I've noticed.
I disagree

Yes, but you haven't given a reason why you disagree beyond "that's the way it is, period".

@jayinjersey: Due to Fel Rush's very high baseline damage, Havoc would still use it rotationally with your changes. You're adding AP% and weapon damage% together, but they aren't the same thing.

[chooi]

You always see this same silly argument on WoW forums. "Don't like it? Reroll". "Don't like it? Quit." It's just that poster being a jerk.

I want to improve DH. And I believe it would be improved by offering the player the choice to constantly reposition, rather than making it mandatory. Not removed-- optional.

But you are not improving it.

You are trying to, unintentionally or not, ruin a core element of the Havoc Demon Hunter spec. I really hope that Blizzard does not cave to guys like you that clearly are just not the right target audience for that spec.

Mechanically, there is no problem with Fel Rush or mobile gameplay of Havoc in general. The problem sits in front of your screen. Thus the answer is simple: 'Don't like? Don't play.'

[Schizoide]

"Don't like it? Reroll!"

Thanks for your meaningful contribution to the conversation, chooi.

[Black Sand]

Yes, but you haven't given a reason why you disagree beyond "that's the way it is, period".

You must've misread my post then. I was arguing class fantasy.

Your reason isn't much better anyway. "Options", because you seem to be under the impression that options = better by default.