PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[Vanyali]

But where are you getting this 15-20% total damage from a sim? I can make a sim say virtually anything I want it to say. To be honest Sim numbers are all I see people basing their opinion on except for a few circumstances and in that case Sim numbers were thrown back as an end all number.

In reality the size of the discrepancy all depends on the player. Some may have the non momentum spec as more dps then the momentum spec. To say that because a Sim said this spec was X% better is just a fraction of the discussion. Take noxxic as an example. Those are simmed out numbers with a realistic sim and a maximum sim. When you switch between the two they become wildly different. Should you use a sim as a tool to help you play better yes I do think you should. All people are doing at the moment is taking computer generated numbers with inputs people choose to say well this spec is X% better then this other spec and that discrepancy is not good. When I could turn around and make the sim say something completely different. To base an argument solely on something that can be manipulated so easily is just wrong.

Noxxic is a really bad source that uses really bad information. Don't take their numbers as anything but a parody.

Sims will perform 100%, every time. That will show you what the 100% output of a class is. Your goal, as a serious raider, is to get as close to that as possible, not to discount it because it was done by a computer.

[Black Sand]

@Black Sand: Options are better with something so divisive. I would never even consider maining a DH due to the rotational repositioning. Lots of people will play a DH when Legion releases, because it's flashy and cool looking, and Blizzard told us it was supposed to be easy to play, and then learn to their chagrin that they have to dash around 3x every 15s or so and there's no way out of it. You either Fel Rush or your damage sucks. Those people will be unhappy.

But why is it a bad thing that those people would be unhappy to play this class? How is divisiveness so terrible?

Yes, lots of people are taking the new and shiny for a test drive. Many will like the playstyle, many won't. Most won't main it. How is this problematic?
We have options: 11 other classes, each with their own set of differing specializations.

The argument is that, for all intents and purposes, Blizzard sees movement as an important aspect of doing damage for the Demon Hunter (I happen to agree). Very likely because they see it as being vital to the class fantasy, which is what they are focusing on in this expansion especially.

I still like to see even more options in gameplay for the DH, but I disagree that any of these options should be free from dmg through movement.

[Kainslife]

@Kainslife: Your argument boils down to "what if they mess up the balance so skipping Fel Rush rotationally is better?" Well, that is possible-- but they committed to nerfing Demon Blades so it's the lowest performance option, and there's no reason they couldn't commit to buffing Momentum similarly.

Which is identical to your argument. Now that we're in agreement that our arguments are simply mirrors of each other, we appeal to the first bullet in my post about how Blizzard intends Fel Rush to be used rotationally. Thus, because we know this, we can go ahead and assume that my argument is the "winner".

[Schizoide]

Sims will perform 100%, every time.

That's completely true, but sims can be wrong-- that is somewhat common at the start of an expansion, particularly with a new class. So always take sim results with a grain of salt. That said, they do offer the most deterministic data available to players at this time.

It's true that you can make sims say whatever you want. I detailed exactly which APL I used, and the changes I made to it, and I'm happy to put my modified APLs up on pastebin if anyone calls shenanigans. My results are completely repeatable.


@Kainslife: You're like the current design. You didn't win the argument. Your preferred design is in the game, though. So if you want to take that as a win, go for it.

But why is it a bad thing that those people would be unhappy to play this class? How is divisiveness so terrible?

I have 12 level 100 characters, and I don't enjoy every spec. But I do try to provide constructive feedback to make the specs I don't enjoy better... for me.

[Feawen]

/TLDR thread and all it's hostility.

Either use Fel Rush as a DPS ability or not regardless of having the Fel Mastery talent. When combined with Momentum it's not about always using it, but when . I have been playing a DH since Alpha. I did not like using Fel Rush as a dps ability or the Momentum build. I warmed up to it and now pull it off quite well. But it takes time. Sims are right.

Like it or don't like it. If you want to main a DH in raiding you will need to RESEARCH the fights to pull off Momentum and Fel Rush as damage. Or you can wait for blizzard to decided if they want to change it or something else.

[jayinjersey]

I can't duplicate your results. Which APL did you use?

10k iterations
450s fight
Patchwerk
No Talents other than T1 (rest are zeros)

I comment out this line in the APL

actions+=/fel_rush,animation_cancel=1,if=!talent.momentum.enabled&raid_event.movement.in>charges*10

[table3]

Noxxic is a really bad source that uses really bad information. Don't take their numbers as anything but a parody.

Sims will perform 100%, every time. That will show you what the 100% output of a class is. Your goal, as a serious raider, is to get as close to that as possible, not to discount it because it was done by a computer.

I understand some people hate noxxic, but I am using it as a point that basing an argument solely on sims is wrong. That is the main point people are basing their arguments on. Sims say one thing whether it's noxxic, or simcraft, or whatever. Then players go out and perform differently. To say that Sim whatever says that Spec A is X% better then Spec B cause of numbers I input and that's the only data I have to show my point is flawed.

I wont pretend to know anything about sims in WoW, but I run simulations for work and it doesn't matter if I use Argus or Excel I can make them say whatever I want. I wouldn't have a job for long if all I based my opinion on was a simulation I ran.

The point is people will perform each spec on a different level. If you strongly dislike the class fantasy of a spec (blizzard chooses this so you can't change it) then your options are to hate the spec you play or play one that fits you better. If your a serious raider I strongly think you're most likely min maxing and it doesn't matter the spec and if you like it. You'll play it and get the most out of it. Or you wont play it at all and leave it to another person in the guild.

[Vanyali]

That's completely true, but sims can be wrong-- that is somewhat common at the start of an expansion, particularly with a new class. So always take sim results with a grain of salt. That said, they do offer the most deterministic data available to players at this time.

It's true that you can make sims say whatever you want. I detailed exactly which APL I used, and the changes I made to it, and I'm happy to put my modified APLs up on pastebin if anyone calls shenanigans. My results are completely repeatable.

While true, I trust the sims of the people that have been doing it successfully for Feral longer than most people have played this game, and whose Havoc sims are based on heavy beta research and work better than most others. This isn't something that was picked up this week and said "o that's cool let's run with that".

No offense to you personally, of course. But I take things with a heavy grain of salt when done from someone that really hates the idea of X and produces results to show how it's fine not to do X that contradict known sims.

[Schizoide]

@Feawen: Actually, Momentum talent is a very small part of it. It's more about using Fel Rush as much as possible, because it does a lot of damage baseline completely free, and with Fel Mastery does a ton more damage while actually generating resources. All these things combine to make it mandatory.

My feedback is that I don't enjoy this playstyle and wish there was a way to talent out of it. That's all.

@Jay: There are a couple fel rush actions to comment out, and removing all other talents isn't actually meaningful.

@Vanyali: Again, you can download simcraft yourself and test it out. This isn't voodoo magic. It's a program, you run it and it spits out results.

I hate Noxxic as much as every other clueful WoW player, but you guys are wrong about why it sucks. Noxxic doesn't suck because it uses Simcraft. It doesn't suck because it uses Simcraft helter-skelter settings either. It sucks because it uses Simcraft across classes to rank performance, and Simcraft simply cannot be used that way. Also it sucks because it tells people to play strictly according to Simcraft APLs, and they often include conditionals that are impossible for a human to consistently execute.

For things like this thread, talking about which talents to take, changing ability priorities, etc, Simcraft is completely valid. (Assuming it's accurate, and again new class and new expansion so not guaranteed.)

[Vanyali]

I understand some people hate noxxic, but I am using it as a point that basing an argument solely on sims is wrong. That is the main point people are basing their arguments on. Sims say one thing whether it's noxxic, or simcraft, or whatever. Then players go out and perform differently. To say that Sim whatever says that Spec A is X% better then Spec B cause of numbers I input and that's the only data I have to show my point is flawed.

I wont pretend to know anything about sims in WoW, but I run simulations for work and it doesn't matter if I use Argus or Excel I can make them say whatever I want. I wouldn't have a job for long if all I based my opinion on was a simulation I ran.

I mean, yes, if you want to make the argument that shitty people make shitty sims.. okay?

But as stated in the prior post.. this isn't amateur hour for sims. I point out using noxxic as a way to note that the entire basis of their sims are wrong, and using noxxic at this point is akin to shooting yourself in the dick to help get your wife pregnant, just as it has always been. Saying that players play different from noxxic so sims are invalid is.. dumb. Sorry. But it really is, because those aren't based on anything but feelcraft.

SimC doesn't use numbers anyone inputs - it pulls from the client itself, then runs thousands of iterations using talents to see what pulls off the highest ilevel. The only input a player has would be if you heavily modified the APL, which shows quite quickly when taking any sort of detailed look into it why your sim is so vastly different (momo uptime, high dbite useage over everything, etc).

[Zeds Dead]

I enjoy the momentum build.

I don't enjoy having the worst talent tree in game. The only decent talents synchronize with momentum and the rest are pretty much garbage.

Diversity and options are never a bad thing. What if you had a fight where you simply can't play momentum properly? You are just screwed.

No other talent in the first teir even comes close to fel rush.

We aren't Rogues that just swap to another dps spec that suits a fight better.

[jayinjersey]

@Vanyali While I concur and pretty much always assume the people doing the work on the sim knows what they are doing.

In MoP, both me as an Enhancement Shaman and my buddy as an Unholy DK would regularly out DPS the sims on Raid Dummies after importing our characters and running the sim for the same time.

[Vanyali]

@Vanyali While I concur and pretty much always assume the people doing the work on the sim knows what they are doing.

In MoP, both me as an Enhancement Shaman and my buddy as an Unholy DK would regularly out DPS the sims on Raid Dummies after importing our characters and running the sim for the same time.

Are you running stock sim, or are you running the custom ones of the TCs?

Because there's a massive difference - the stock ones really aren't that great in comparison. Don't get me wrong, they're still a useful tool, and you should use them. But you *can* beat them because they're not fully optimized, unlike the custom ones of the guys that do the main TC'ing.

There's also that most sims are ST, and being next to a dummy generally means you're actually doing a 2-target fight, which would of course increase your damage from the sim.

[Jtbrig7390]

It has one - it's called First Aid.

Class ability and First Aid heals like shit even more so when using it to solo stuff.

[table3]

I mean, yes, if you want to make the argument that shitty people make shitty sims.. okay?

But as stated in the prior post.. this isn't amateur hour for sims. I point out using noxxic as a way to note that the entire basis of their sims are wrong, and using noxxic at this point is akin to shooting yourself in the dick to help get your wife pregnant, just as it has always been. Saying that players play different from noxxic so sims are invalid is.. dumb. Sorry. But it really is, because those aren't based on anything but feelcraft.

SimC doesn't use numbers anyone inputs - it pulls from the client itself, then runs thousands of iterations using talents to see what pulls off the highest ilevel. The only input a player has would be if you heavily modified the APL, which shows quite quickly when taking any sort of detailed look into it why your sim is so vastly different (momo uptime, high dbite useage over everything, etc).

I understand that people put the time into sims and they are complicated. My issue though is basing an argument solely on what the sim tells you. Sims are a great tool as a foundation, but that is all they are good for. To think that you as a human player will be able to match those numbers exactly is not realistic. If you do match those numbers exactly then you are a min maxer who cares more about getting the most out of the class more then you like the play style. It wont matter if the next spec is 5% away or 20% away. You're not going to be playing it anyway because the other spec is 5% better.

Do you see my point? I am not taking offense to simulations as a whole, but to people who base an argument on solely what a simulation says and expect to get change form it.

[jayinjersey]

There's also that most sims are ST, and being next to a dummy generally means you're actually doing a 2-target fight, which would of course increase your damage from the sim.

Heh...Enhancement with Cleave/AoE in early Mop...that makes me smile






But aside from that...wait, what?
Is there a site somewhere that has these custom sims?

I've always just assumed the ones in the SimC program were the current "best ones"


Does SimC have a forum?

[Schizoide]

Sims assume perfect execution, yes. You need to take a look at the APL and figure out how closely your human brain and fingers can actually approach that. That's an area that Noxxic regularly fails.

That said, assuming the sim is actually correct (and again, new expansion & new class), it is completely valid to use sim results to look at different priorities, gear, and talent choices. You just need to keep in the back of your head, "It's 15% more damage if I spec that way and use Fel Rush on cooldown every time, but I'll probably waste a second or two here and there, so lets call it 12% when I make my decision how to try to play". And so on.

@jay: Don't know what the DH experts are doing specifically, but usually "custom sims" are just APLs in development, not ready for mainline yet. They get added to the main simcraft download when they're ready.

[Kainslife]

Class ability and First Aid heals like shit even more so when using it to solo stuff.

First Aid bandages in Legion heal for something like 500k over 8 seconds. That's a huge amount. And no, it doesn't need a class ability for a self-heal. Quit fighting for homogenization.

[Schizoide]

The highest end one requiring 5 cloth and 1 ore heals for 500k yeah. The bandage people will commonly use is 1 cloth and heals for 336k. Note that DPS specs at level 110 have around 1.4 million health.

[Fenixhart]

Movement Abilities having damage tied to them never really ended up well in the end.