Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Hashcrypt]

So just to confirm, after the assa nerf, all 3 specs are really close in performance, and ones choice should be based on playstyle preference and not meter production?

From my understanding, pre nerf, assass was too far ahead in damage to make the other two specs viable choices.

[Blokes]

So just to confirm, after the assa nerf, all 3 specs are really close in performance, and ones choice should be based on playstyle preference and not meter production?

From my understanding, pre nerf, assass was too far ahead in damage to make the other two specs viable choices.

Essentially, yes. At the highest gear levels, all three specs are simming very close to one another. Close enough that, I would venture to guess, that personal skill with a class will dictate which one you will be able to do the most damage with.

That said, if Outlaw's single target stays competitive with Assassination and Sub, there is a very strong incentive to main spec Outlaw. It can do something neither of the two, which is AoE.

I suspect there will be either a single target buff to Sub/Assassination or a nerf to Outlaw's single target to widen the gap between them, otherwise it forces us who min/max into one spec, which I can't believe is something Blizz is happy about.

[Spriestlawl]

Been playing with legendary boots/sprint for a few hours now and getting some great numbers on my 844 rogue, much higher then your sims. really excited about outlaws potential going into live.

im guessing worgen will almost certainly be the go to outlaw race once you get boots thanks to darkflight as well?

These are 450s sims allowing burst to even out. Shorter fights you're going to see slightly higher output, especially because you're tending to look at a few pulls vs thousands that sims do. Also, I'm neglecting to sim boots spec atm because it's not really targetable to find a legendary at this point.

Essentially, yes. At the highest gear levels, all three specs are simming very close to one another. Close enough that, I would venture to guess, that personal skill with a class will dictate which one you will be able to do the most damage with.

That said, if Outlaw's single target stays competitive with Assassination and Sub, there is a very strong incentive to main spec Outlaw. It can do something neither of the two, which is AoE.

I suspect there will be either a single target buff to Sub/Assassination or a nerf to Outlaw's single target to widen the gap between them, otherwise it forces us who min/max into one spec, which I can't believe is something Blizz is happy about.

I'm not entirely sure Outlaw will see a nerf. It's AOE while clearly better than the others is still VERY lackluster compared to other class/specs. There's really no reason to nerf it in a raid situation if everyone's boss dmg is clearly very strong. It's only impact is in mythic+ which isn't a drastic outlier. I do feel a small buff to sub would be the actual best thing though.. Small increase in dmg output to backstab scales it right into the mix at T19M. Also, I think a slight buff to poisons would be lovely for T19M assassination closing that 1-2% gap tighter. All in all though, as you said, personal proficiency is going to play a large part in dmg output for specs. And RNG can absolutely screw you in Outlaw. 450s sims are great tools but they are 7.5 min fights guys... There aren't many yolo-non-stop-for-7-plus-minute-fights. A lot of us looking at sims will probably start looking at 240s and 300s (soonish) to see if there's large disparities at those levels. With the burst output Assassination will probably scale slightly higher and sub fall slightly more with Outlaw being pretty steady where it is under those conditions.

[iDielord]

PRE RAID (840 ilvl 870 weapons)
Outlaw - 244k
Sin - 220k
Sub - 210k

Dunno, but using default AMR templates i'm getting PRE-RAID Sub at ~221.5k and outlaw as 235k, exactly like @Zoopercat linked in RtB testing. Swapping to Ghostly Strike ups it to ~239.5k.

[UR1L]

What's the agreed upon artifact route? To Greed first, and then to Blurred time?

[Spriestlawl]

Dunno, but using default AMR templates i'm getting PRE-RAID Sub at ~221.5k and outlaw as 235k, exactly like @Zoopercat linked in RtB testing. Swapping to Ghostly Strike ups it to ~239.5k.

That could easily be differences in APL. Zoopercat is using AMR and I'm still using my simc APL. I don't see sub pushing much further ahead where I have it but I can take a look at it. GS is ok but it's not really upping my Outlaw sims much, it's more net-neutral or slight negative with the Run Trough and everything else, especially if I take into account RtB fishing.

What's the agreed upon artifact route? To Greed first, and then to Blurred time?

Greed -> Blurred Time yes.. if you can manage to snake the top route you'll be better off. IF I go outlaw I'll probably bank everything after Greed, go HAM, and see where I end up. Then talent the rest pre-raid. It's hard to check how much AP I'll be able to farm at release =/

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I wanted to make sure I clarified something for the 840 templates we have.

So, theorycraft isn't final (in either simc or AMR). Bugs are still getting found, game changes are still happening, etc etc etc. That means preferred stats might change. It might also mean that a rotation can be optimized further.

Because of that, we built neutral gear profiles that won't cause biases in theory. For example, I picked relics that give you health or healing or something that you'd likely never pick. I did this because if I chose one that affects a specific ability, we would then favor that ability in simulations. And that might not be the right thing to do yet, since so much might change. Same goes with trinkets and artifact nodes.

So if you play with those things, you can easily get higher DPS. What I wanted to show was relative values with as much of a neutral setup as possible. But if you want to try to get the BEST outcome, definitely play with it. That's why we made it so easy for you to change gear and talents and whatnots.

Anyway, hope that makes sense!

[Skandulous]

Dunno, but using default AMR templates i'm getting PRE-RAID Sub at ~221.5k and outlaw as 235k, exactly like @Zoopercat linked in RtB testing. Swapping to Ghostly Strike ups it to ~239.5k.

i re simmed it and got 270K......your sim was 239 because you used the gem slots that heal when you should have used the 3 that increase run thru damage by 8%

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...508ff899092f01

edit.........nvm just read above why non dps relics were picked

So even at 110 WW, DK, Firemage, and Hunters beat outlaw in aoe DPS? Outlaw has best aoe of rogue specs but i get shit on in raids its like blade furry hits like a bitch compared to other classes

[WskyDK]

i re simmed it and got 270K......your sim was 239 because you used the gem slots that heal when you should have used the 3 that increase run thru damage by 8%

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...508ff899092f01

See Zooper's post above

[Zoopercat]

Rogues, I am so sorry I haven't done those other sims that a few of you asked for. I wanted to today, but have been side tracked chasing down fallout from another post by a well-intentioned excited person.

There are just 3 of us that work on the whole AMR website. And my job is public facing + deep dive research projects. So my top priority today is to make sure people don't think the simulator is bad bc of that graph. Chasing down forums, discord, this stuff spreads like FIIIRREE!! Haha, I don't have an easy job some days.

Anyway, I will get back to rogue fun stuff soon, bc you guys have been so much fun to chat with!

Edit to address @marinara42's question. Yes the simulator takes all interactions into account. But the right talents, etc need to be selected. Now the APL might need to take things into account if you want to do something different based on your combo points. For example, our default finisher logic starts if you have 5+ combo points. If you wanted to do something different if you have, say 7, you'd have to adjust the APL (rotation) for that.

[Izenhart]

It's ok my man

They could just not be lazy, make their own rogue with whatever specs and stats they want, save it, and use it everytime instead of using the default one and then complain

[Deleted]

The mytic gear (ring I think) who deal additional frontal cone AOE based on 15 % off the dmg by combopoint generating abilitys, do it include run thru? As it generate one combopoint if used with 5cp?

[iDielord]

The mytic gear (ring I think) who deal additional frontal cone AOE based on 15 % off the dmg by combopoint generating abilitys, do it include run thru? As it generate one combopoint if used with 5cp?

No, it doesn't since it "refunds" it via Ruthless. Ring works only on general builders like saber slash ambush and such.

[marinara42]

Rogues, I am so sorry I haven't done those other sims that a few of you asked for. I wanted to today, but have been side tracked chasing down fallout from another post by a well-intentioned excited person.

There are just 3 of us that work on the whole AMR website. And my job is public facing + deep dive research projects. So my top priority today is to make sure people don't think the simulator is bad bc of that graph. Chasing down forums, discord, this stuff spreads like FIIIRREE!! Haha, I don't have an easy job some days.

Anyway, I will get back to rogue fun stuff soon, bc you guys have been so much fun to chat with!

Edit to address @marinara42's question. Yes the simulator takes all interactions into account. But the right talents, etc need to be selected. Now the APL might need to take things into account if you want to do something different based on your combo points. For example, our default finisher logic starts if you have 5+ combo points. If you wanted to do something different if you have, say 7, you'd have to adjust the APL (rotation) for that.

I only ask because I believe I changed everything to be within the correct parameters, but the DPS difference between finishing at 7/8 Combo points and 5 was less than 100, which doesn't seem right to me when the former refunds you up to 4 combo points. I very well may be doing something incorrectly though.

[Spriestlawl]

So even at 110 WW, DK, Firemage, and Hunters beat outlaw in aoe DPS? Outlaw has best aoe of rogue specs but i get shit on in raids its like blade furry hits like a bitch compared to other classes

Yes, which is why I said earlier I don't think Outlaw will see a nerf. If anything, I'd look for buffs in Sin aoe and a slight buff to sub (but unlikely). Outlaw IS better at AOE but it's so poop compared to other class/specs that I feel they'll keep it ST viable. Personally, I feel Outlaw and Sin are in final (ish) builds and sub will see a slight buff in a week or so.

[Black Jack]

So post hotfixes whats our rotation i can see whats on icey veins but nothing else. Somebody help me out! should we be taking ghost strike?

[dorfeater]

So post hotfixes whats our rotation i can see whats on icey veins but nothing else. Somebody help me out! should we be taking ghost strike?

From what I understand, Ghostly Strike is a DPS increase (according to sims) but only by a hair. Our rotation hasn't really changed much, but we're now rerolling RtB looking for 2+ buffs (in general).

[Spriestlawl]

Yes, which is why I said earlier I don't think Outlaw will see a nerf. If anything, I'd look for buffs in Sin aoe and a slight buff to sub (but unlikely). Outlaw IS better at AOE but it's so poop compared to other class/specs that I feel they'll keep it ST viable. Personally, I feel Outlaw and Sin are in final (ish) builds and sub will see a slight buff in a week or so.

Not much has changed.. Saber slash to 5+, run through to victory. RtB as needed. Shorter fights you shouldn't RtB too much as it can cause issues. When we're sure the final build comes out I'll find the sweet spot of "expected fight durations" where you probably shouldn't reroll.

[Black Jack]

From what I understand, Ghostly Strike is a DPS increase (according to sims) but only by a hair. Our rotation hasn't really changed much, but we're now rerolling RtB looking for 2+ buffs (in general).

So what exactly should i be doing different compared to the icey veins guide besides the 2+ buffs and should we be taking sword master or quick draw? Or is there a guide with all this info im missing?

[Spriestlawl]

GS is a marginal DPS increase, if you choose to go that route it does complicate the rotation. You'll want to keep the debuff up 100% at that point. It's a 15 sec debuff but benefits from Pandemic, so you'll want to refresh at <4.5s. When I say marginal, extremely marginal. In fact, it's so marginal I personally wouldn't. The one good thing about GS is it helps get you to 6 CP if you need to but it doesn't always line up. If you don't go GS, Quick Draw is what you want. 2+buffs is pretty key but as you see in the info graphic it's close. The key is to know what buffs aren't helping you (which ones sucks) and rerolling those as needed. MfD on fast dying adds is a great way to get RtB rerolls if needed. As for a guide? not really, IV is somewhat up to date, not much has changed. GS is very, very marginal and probably won't change. It stays marginal through T19M at this point.