[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Juvencus]

People here seem to have very different definition of hybrid because I very often read DK and War on the list of pures. Pures are the classes that can only fulfill a single roll (tank, dps, healer) in the game. That would mean hunters, rogues, mages and warlocks.

The problem that you as a balance druid are cast as DPS only is a problem of your raid composition design. I don't see why a raid can't profit from a healer that is able to perform very well as DPS so he can switch roles for bosses that need less healing. Or a DPS that can replace a tank who has connection problems. Guilds that advertise with being top X00 somewhere in the world probably have a roaster that allows to just switch players and here people are cast for very specific roles. But for the majority of guilds a versatile class/player is a valuable asset to the raid.

The abilities of a class should not be a measure of the abilities of a spec.

That's like giving all CC to Frost mages and none to Fire mages and calling it fine.
Balance druids should*** not be taxed because Resto druids can heal.

***Not saying they are, just replying to people asking them to be.

[wing5wong]

People here seem to have very different definition of hybrid because I very often read DK and War on the list of pures. Pures are the classes that can only fulfill a single roll (tank, dps, healer) in the game. That would mean hunters, rogues, mages and warlocks.

The problem that you as a balance druid are cast as DPS only is a problem of your raid composition design. I don't see why a raid can't profit from a healer that is able to perform very well as DPS so he can switch roles for bosses that need less healing. Or a DPS that can replace a tank who has connection problems. Guilds that advertise with being top X00 somewhere in the world probably have a roaster that allows to just switch players and here people are cast for very specific roles. But for the majority of guilds a versatile class/player is a valuable asset to the raid.

THe problem lies in the way our heals work - we can cast 5 rejuvbefore being oom.
We used to be valuable with tranq, rejuv and so on. that time has changed.

[Deleted]

Can I bring up another topic to this discussion?

what do you guys think about the tier 19 set if you are honest.

In my opinion those are the worst bonuses ever

– Lunar and Solar Empowerments also increase the critical strike chance of their corresponding spells by 10%.
– Lunar Strike has a 5% chance to grant Solar Empowerment and Solar Wrath has a 3% chance to grant Lunar Empowerment.

5% and 3% on a cast time spell? that is like twice maybe three times in a boss encounter. that sounds impressive....

[restoxpresso]

I doubt most people will resort to crafting, though ;p. Legion's gonna pull a lot of people who weren't present for the Gold Machine expansion that was WoD.

I know people definitely wouldn't mind having a BiS-list for every single piece of content, but as I said, it was generally made just for me, just shared here because, well, why not?

Personally, I'm probably gonna be decked out in crafted gear as much as possible, so making a BiS-list for HC/Mythic dungeons is gonna be a waste of time. I think the general rule of thumb is that you just want ilvl at the stat of an expansion, especially since the ilvl jumps between content is as big as it is in Legion.

That, coupled with the fact that there's a few more sources for gear before raiding now (Mythic, Mythic+, world quests), which only makes the pre-raid list so much bigger, there's also an element of randomness, since everything can drop as WF/TF. That means, that I ideally would include every single Dungeon item from Normal, HC, Mythic and Mythic+, those items could still be beaten by a random item you get from world quests, which I can't foresee.

In the end, the pre-raid BiS-list is just too much work, when saying "Just go for ilvl, and preferably Haste", is gonna be the way to go 95% of the time.

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what do you guys think about the tier 19 set if you are honest.

Some very lazy number crunching in my head makes me think that the 2p is stronger than the 4p, which is weird. The 4p also seems really weak, and the fact that we're almost capping on empowerments anyway, could mean that this set bonus is completely negated.

[Juvencus]

Can I bring up another topic to this discussion?

what do you guys think about the tier 19 set if you are honest.

In my opinion those are the worst bonuses ever

– Lunar and Solar Empowerments also increase the critical strike chance of their corresponding spells by 10%.
– Lunar Strike has a 5% chance to grant Solar Empowerment and Solar Wrath has a 3% chance to grant Lunar Empowerment.

5% and 3% on a cast time spell? that is like twice maybe three times in a boss encounter. that sounds impressive....

Expansion T1 is usually boring. The explanation given was that players are still adapting to new class changes in the environment of (the new) max level PvE, so they don't want to introduce new things to manage.

[Deleted]

I did the math on the bonuses a while ago, 2p is ~3% and 4p is ~1.5% ST. Both are basically useless on more than 1 target. We'll likely pick up 2p for single target only once everybody else has tier. Secondary stats on tier gear are terrible. I made a longer post about it on the feedback forums but on phone so not linking sorry.

[Alame]

Stampeding Roar was changed to Innervate, we didnt lose utility it was just changed.

Comparing the two is laughable. Innervate is not only a tool that has significantly narrower usage scenarios, it also has a significantly lower level of impact.

10s of free mana for 1 healer + 50% haste vs. 8s 60% increased movespeed for your whole raid. One of these is exceptionally versatile utility, one of them is a support button for healer mana management.

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Oh, my fucking god. Where did I say I wanted to REMOVE empowerments.

I was the one advocating for removal of empowerments. They were a mechanic that made sense with the WoD sine-wave Eclipse, in Legion's iteration they are a band-aid fix for poor balancing of damage sources. They serve only to sap power away from Starsurge and provide some level of "decision making" (as if Lunar Empowerments pushing LS casts is decision making.)

Lucrece can be an asshole, but that doesn't make his opinions any less valid. Every single one of the regular posters in here (myself included) have been assholes to each other at some point. If you have to make remarks about "retarded comments" and "posters like you", you've passed the point of constructive discussion.

Anyway, my druid is likely going Resto for any real content I do in Legion - I look forward to debating the next rework with you all, be it a Legion patch or next expansion.

[Lucrece]

For what it's worth, at the haste levels demon invasions give you (like that 20% haste buff), balance druid is pretty fun. You're pushing starsurges out often, which also means more empowered lunar strikes.

It feels smooth. I hope they capture that feeling of smoothness in our gameplay down the line in later tiers. The rotation flows.

Unfortunately I think the ship has sailed on our honestly crappy and unimaginative talents.

So all we can ask for is a buff to Barkskin for a 35-40% mitigation, buff to our healing spell coefficients, and cost reduction to starfall (or alternatively condense the effect of starfall further to a shorter duration so by the time you get 50-60 asp your spell can actually do its damage before the demonhunters, monks, fire mages, and warriors can wipe them out).

[huth]

Why shouldnt a pure dps class that only does one thing be on top? Druids can perforn every role in the game. It would be a little silly if we were the best at them also.

Why bring a Druid if you can just switch somebody better in instead? All that would do is make Druids nonviable in high-end content.

"Jack of all Trades" only works when you have to deal with varying challenges without being able to change your team. Otherwise, specialists will be preferable.

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For what it's worth, at the haste levels demon invasions give you (like that 20% haste buff), balance druid is pretty fun. You're pushing starsurges out often, which also means more empowered lunar strikes.

It feels smooth. I hope they capture that feeling of smoothness in our gameplay down the line in later tiers. The rotation flows.

Well, keep in mind that Haste is by far our best stat in Legion, while right now we're somewhat stuck with our WoD mastery gear.

[Deleted]

Just FYI more haste doesn't affect the percentage of your fillers that are empowered. Actually, with the artifact more haste means less (smaller percentage) of your spells will be empowered. Granted, it probably ain't noticeable since movement/multidotting is more significant, but haste doesn't change much in terms of what buttons you press, you just press everything more often.

[dreamdaddy]

Expansion T1 is usually boring. The explanation given was that players are still adapting to new class changes in the environment of (the new) max level PvE, so they don't want to introduce new things to manage.

I feel like many of the other t19 set bonuses do alter playstyles:

Demon Hunter T19 Havoc 2P Bonus - Your Fury generation from all abilities is increased by 20%.

Monk T19 Windwalker 4P Bonus - Using 3 sequentially different abilities grants 1,000 Mastery for 10 sec.

Hunter T19 Survival 4P Bonus - When Mongoose Fury reaches 6 applications, you gain 50% increased damage to all abilities for 6 sec.

Paladin T19 Holy 4P Bonus - Infusion of Light has 2 additional charges.

Looking at the list of set bonuses, it does seem like Balance got arguably the most boring effects. Some classes can expect to see significant DPS gains with their set bonuses and we'll probably be avoiding them. Not that this is a huge issue but it will definitely make the first tier of raiding less fun.

[noobadrood]

That's actually the opposite. If a WF guild player argues that the spec is viable at that level, then it means the spec is more than competitive at lower levels.

So, if a guy that plays at 100% of the spec's potential says "it's viable" at that level, it obviously means that at lower level is better. Actually logical, indeed.

[Juvencus]

So, if a guy that plays at 100% of the spec's potential says "it's viable" at that level, it obviously means that at lower level is better. Actually logical, indeed.

Spec potential doesn't scale with higher standards.

[Lucrece]

Just FYI more haste doesn't affect the percentage of your fillers that are empowered. Actually, with the artifact more haste means less (smaller percentage) of your spells will be empowered. Granted, it probably ain't noticeable since movement/multidotting is more significant, but haste doesn't change much in terms of what buttons you press, you just press everything more often.

Definitely, it just feels more fun to be machine gun-ish with the speed wrath and starfire cast at with that invasion buff . More Starsurges more often too .

I also forgot to include that I hope they revert Fury of Elune to a 1 min cd and finally change its graphic to a lunar theme.

[Juvencus]

I also forgot to include that I hope they revert Fury of Elune to a 1 min cd and finally change its graphic to a lunar theme.

She is furious because it's orange.

[Cyous]

Spec potential doesn't scale with higher standards.

Mastering your class is a bigger DPS increase than re-rolling.

I think it was Zoopercat who made a very, very in-depth analysis of this data.

[Juvencus]

Mastering your class is a bigger DPS increase than re-rolling.

I think it was Zoopercat who made a very, very in-depth analysis of this data.

The context of the reply was that the maximum potential of the spec does not change when you apply different standards of evaluation. Only the perception of it.

[Deleted]

ok so everybody actually agrees that the bonuses are crap.
especially after reading some other speccs / classes -,-
at least invasions give the opportunity to get everything to 100 now and then still consider swapping.

don't wanna get rid of my boomkin but the first tier is really really boomkin unfriendly. (no encounter wise but excitement wise)

[Arborus]

ok so everybody actually agrees that the bonuses are crap.
especially after reading some other speccs / classes -,-
at least invasions give the opportunity to get everything to 100 now and then still consider swapping.

don't wanna get rid of my boomkin but the first tier is really really boomkin unfriendly. (no encounter wise but excitement wise)

I actually kind of like that we're not in the "4pc is always better than optimally statted offpieces" category.

[huth]

Given that they did that entirely on purpose... Set bonuses are just bonuses this time. On the other hand we got a really cool looking Owl based set for the first tier, so i'm gonna collect it anyway.

I feel like many of the other t19 set bonuses do alter playstyles:

Er... most of those do even less to change playstyle than Balance. WW, Survival and Demon Hunter all just make you better while playing normally.