Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[Aeula]

Garrosh was one person too. And Putress, and Cordana.

One person being weak is all it takes to give the Legion an advantage. On person betraying the entire cause because "Oh I was in danger" or "Oh they threatened my people!". No shit. That's what enemies do. There's a reason you don't just give in to demands in a hostage situation: because they can just get what they want and kill the hostages anyway.

So... shall we purge the wardens and Khadgar and everyone who joined Khadgar on his expedition because Cordana want a little lala? No. Because that would be fucking stupid.

Shes a member of the Alliance, just the Sunreavers are members of the Horde. They are free to help their respective factions, they just cant use their neutrality with the Kirin Tor to do it. Which Jaina did not do, and the Sunreavers did. As for Aethas, he chose to remain silent and put his loyalty with the Horde above his trust with the Kirin Tor, which shows that he and his faction will abuse their power and trust with the Kirin Tor. They had to be removed, and they refused and fought back.

She was the LEADER of a faction that liked to consider themselves 'neutral', it's like having the pope declare Vatican city neutral in World War II only to pick up a gun and defend Hitler's base of operations.

[Akatoshh]

Anduin is high king, or at least king of stormwind, you see that in the anduin comic, his title in game, and also how other people address him

[Spunt]

To be fair, sylvanas did slay many of his people, she killed her son right in front of him, and also because of what they did, they where forced to summon the wargen as reinforcements. Which in turn cursed all of his people to become wargen. Also they took his city, or at least maybe did, they didn't say who won yet. You can say im just a fanboy, but ive never been a really big fan of genn, i think i like sylvanas better. but i would say it would be unrealistic if all of that was done to him by these people, and he just disregarded all of that.

Genn did fuck all to help silverpine out when they plague came rolling through. Long before Sylvanas became leader of the Foresaken. Little shit got what he deserved for deserting the alliance and his neighbors.

[Aeula]

Also the Alliance doesnt help with the purge

WRONG

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Lieutenant_Corwin

[Sandrox]

WRONG

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Lieutenant_Corwin

WRONG
The alliance show up after the purge. This is when the Horde helps break out the Sunreaver prisoners.

[Aeula]

WRONG
The alliance show up after the purge. This is when the Horde helps break out the Sunreaver prisoners.

The purge was still in process, note Jaina actively walking around the city killing and imprisoning sunreavers at random.

In addition the alliance troops continue to actively attack sunreaver civilians during this time. I can take a screenshot in-game if you want.

[Sandrox]

She got threatened? By who..?

Garrosh? You know, the guy shes trying to stop from getting ahold of the Divine Bell? The guy who destroyed her city? The guy even the Horde eventually turned on?

[Deathquoi]

Because Jaina is a hypocrite.
She aids the Alliance, then claims she's being neutral and is surprised when the Horde retaliates.
And not just once!
It's not what she does against the Horde, it is what she does against innocent people or people that thought they were friendly with her.
#RemembertheSunreavers

Genn Greymane has a good reason to hate the Horde, but that doesn't excuse him from drawing the wrong conclusions all the time.

But who gets more shit, justifiably so, are the people who claim Sylvanas is like the Lich King. Using that quote tells all of us you have no idea what you are talking about.

Do you think settlements that garrison troops should be nuked off the planet?

Just because Theramore was not a neutral city, which it never was, does not mean the Horde should have carte blanche to obliterate it with WMDs. That's not reasonable logic.

Jaina's city was annihilated by the WoW equivalent of a dirty bomb and then the Sunreavers betrayed her tolerance even after the Horde obliterated her people.

[Sandrox]

The purge was still in process, note Jaina actively walking around the city killing and imprisoning sunreavers at random.

In addition the alliance troops continue to actively attack sunreaver civilians during this time. I can take a screenshot in-game if you want.

Well then I was wrong, I was referring the Alliance version wheres theres not a single Alliance soldier there.

[Pony Soldier]

There are more pressing matters right now and getting revenge for a single family member or being bombed is not on the top of the priority list. The world is facing annihilation and all Genn and Jaina care about right now are their own personal vendettas. They are literally just brushing aside the Legion like they're no big deal and acting like the Horde is the bigger threat. They don't have their priorities in order. They also quickly assume and jump to conclusions and automatically blame Horde for what happened without knowing what was going on on their end.

[Aeula]

Well then I was wrong, I was referring the Alliance version wheres theres not a single Alliance soldier there.

Like the broken shore, you need to play both versions of the quest to get the full picture. Otherwise you'll miss important details.

[Nerevar]

Same reason Garrosh got shit.

[Deleted]

I really don't get it either. I just disagree with them on one thing. It's not the time to wage war with the horde. But, it's also a mistake to trust them. Wrathion was right in retrospect.

- - - Updated - - -

Same reason Garrosh got shit.

What? What did the alliance do to garrosh?

[Spunt]

Do you think settlements that garrison troops should be nuked off the planet?

Just because Theramore was not a neutral city, which it never was, does not mean the Horde should have carte blanche to obliterate it with WMDs. That's not reasonable logic.

Jaina's city was annihilated by the WoW equivalent of a dirty bomb and then the Sunreavers betrayed her tolerance even after the Horde obliterated her people.

Lol. So they should have just let the alliance establish a major staging area to destroy the horde's main city? When she chose to use her city as a staging ground for the alliance incursion into kalimdor so they could attack the horde, she made her a city a non-neutral military target. She has no one to blame but herself for what happened to theramore.

Hell, Baine even warned her about what was going to happen. She has plenty of time to get everyone out but only evacuated the civilians and kept just military people there. Therefore, it was a totally justified attack on a military target.

[Kallisto]

No, it's more like the USA imprisoning Japanese-Americans during WW2. And just for the record, those that tried to fight were sometimes shot. All their belongings were confiscated too, by the way, even if they were later given back. They were imprisoned because they might harbour sympathies to the enemy of the USA or be spies. The USA did apologize for it eventually, but it made sense in the context on why it was done. Same here. Sunreavers (remember, Jaina didn't know it was just 1) helped the Horde steal the Divine Bell. The Horde thus became the enemy and the Sunreavers its associates. They were given choice to leave or be imprisoned. Some decided to fight. By doing so they just confirmed their allegiance to the Horde.

So it's ok to round up innocent people and kick them about, take away their rights just because there is a very very very small chance they might hold sympathies for someone you don't like. Sorry no that's fucked up. Even if in a world war I would never lock up anyone who might have some link to an enemy nation. It's innocent till proven guilty and if my nation falls because of it, then it is because for some reason my people didn't want to fight in that war and more power to them.

[Deleted]

Best analogy i have for the Jaina's hatred would be like being angry at Germany now for what they did during WWII. Hitler was in control, as Garrosh was in control over the horde at the time.

See how the writing for this makes no sense?

Except that happened 70 years ago. Imagine it having happened like 5-10 years ago instead. There were plenty of people hating on Germany and germans after WW2. Both sides of Germany.
Oh, and Germany also payed reparations. The Horde did not. Did they even return Ashenvale and Gilneas at least, as it was claimed?
And, of course, even regarding the Axis, Romania, Hungary etc changed sides. They would be the Horde rebellion. Guess what? They still payed reparations and suffered. Because for a while they were on the Axis side. Even Finland, who managed to become neutral, lost the Viipuri zone and a bit more land up north.

It isn't like they just sat back and let it happen. Carine sent his fastest message runner to warn her and because of that most of them were saved. Jaina didn't even hate them that much after that, mad sure but not insane, as you can tell from when you go to Dalaran as Alliance with Anduin before the Divine Bell situation. She turned batshit crazy after the "Horde" which was just Garrosh convincing 1 person in Dalaran to help steal the Divine Bell from the Alliance.



Genn kept his home in Forsaken territory, it was his fault for not leaving, sure "defend your home", but don't get pissed off when war comes because of your ignorance or unwillingness to form a peace treaty. That would be like a Jewish family building a home right next to Hitler's home.



Sylvanas has never done anything outside of her peoples best interests, she's never done anything against the Horde. As for becoming like the LK, she doesn't force her will upon the people who get raised. She gives them the CHOICE.

WOW, just wow...
First, Theramore. You meant Baine. Baine sent his runner and all civilians were evacuated. On 2 ships that were captured by Garrosh, who then used them as target practice or as fun for his troops.

Genn's home had been established before the first undead even existed. So, in your argument, if Hitler moved next to a jewish family then went to kill them, he'd be to blame. If we used your example, they moved next to Hitler and he attacked them... guess what, Hitler would still be to blame!

Yes, the choice is "Join us or die". That's made quite clear in their starting zone. Oh, and she took Koltira for brainwashing.

and How are the alliance not mad at genn? He stayed behind a wall and ignored the alliance until he needed their help. He literally said Fuck you i wont help you but then asked you to help him.

Yes, he built a giant wall after he told the other to kill the lethargic orcs and they refused so he said "well you'll see how they'll rise one day and start creating issues, but Gilneas won't wait for you like you fools"(not his actual words, but basically this is what he did) and built a wall . And guess what? He was right. Garrosh proved it. The Iron Horde proved it. Orcs didn't have to drink demon blood to be a race of warmongering barbarians.
Genn was right.

Thats not even remotely bad writing. If they made every character like the way you say is good writing, we would have every character being basically the exact same. Right now, we have different leaders with different goals and different beliefs, which is really good.

Jaina believes the horde is shit and is destructive wants revenge for the hordes actions against theramore and at the broken shore. Whether Anduin believes she shouldnt be hellbent on revenge, she believes she should, which is good writing because that makes her a different character, which is good.

Genn believes Sylvanas is shit and wants revenge for events that unfolded a long time ago and after he saw her ditch the horde. Whether thats what happened or not doesnt matter, because Genn believes it happened and thats exactly what makes him his own character.

Velen wants revenge for his son and his people. Hes tired of sitting around and just being the prophet, so now he wants in on the action and wants to take his home back for his people.

Malfurion wants to rescue Cenarius and cleanse the emerald nightmare along with Tyrande.

Anduin wants peace among the factions but also wants the factions united against the Legion.

The dwarf leaders are focused on Magnis return.

See, thats not bad writing at all. If they did what you call good writing, every character would get wiser and stronger due to hardships and every character would be the same. The way we have now is just fine, every character has dealt with different ordeals, and every character deals with them in their own way. They do there own thing and believe in their own ideals. Thats exactly how it should be and thats how it is.

I mostly agree with this except regarding Jaina. She keeps changing her views too much from book to game and back. At one point it made sense, now it's starting to make less and less unfortunately. Unless she's made or a dreadlord, which is something I don't desire honestly as it would be a bad cop-out.

But...that wasn't genn, that was most likely sky admiral rodgers yelling out "FUCK THE RULES" to anduins orders, and shooting at sylvanas.

OT: I have no problem as to why they're mad, but please...just focus on the legion for NOW! What's worse, having a war against a dying faction, or losing the ballte against intergalactic demons, with a god who can cleave planets, if not MORE!?! There's not much of a choice in this case.

Genn doesn't see the issue like this. Try to understand his point of view. He thinks it like this:
1. He can go and fight the Legion with all he's got. But he believes the Horde is treacherous and will stab him in the back and take what's left of Gilneas. So, say they win against the Legion. All the Gilneans remaining, few and tired will... not have anywhere and anything to return to. For the Horde will have destroyed it. And due to being weak as they fought the Legion, they won't be able to resist anymore.
2. Now, I know what you're thinking, the Horde would never do that... I mean, it's their interest as well for the Legion not to win, right? Just like it was their interest for... Ragnaros to not win. Yet when Ragnaros attacked Hyjal and night elves sent troops to Hyjal, who profited of the situation to try and take Ashenvale? The Horde. And Genn knew this, for his worgen were around Darnassus and some in Ashenvale as well.

They cannot destroy the world. The Legion is an infinitely larger threat.

True. But they can destroy the Alliance if they backstabbed them. So then, why would the Alliance only fight the Legion risking saving the world... for the Horde to get all the spoils?

The Horde can't kill (and that's still a large assumption without a universal guarantee as they have worked together before like in Dragon Soul without incident) as many people as the Legion. Horde could never conquer Stormwind or the rest of the Alliance. Legion easily can.

Also true. But to someone living anywhere outside the capitals things don't look as well. And Gilneas actually lost its capital. To the Horde. Without even doing anything to attack the Horde since they sealed themselves in there. They were neutral ever since the 2nd war. And what did that get them? a kingdom mostly conquered by forsaken, much of their land plagued and their people dead. I can see why Genn would hate the Horde to the core.

Maybe Jaina shouldn't claim neutrality when she invited alliance military leaders into her city so they can attack the horde.

Bitch got her totally neutral city nuked because she doesn't understand what the word "Neutral" actually means. Guess she should read a dictionary sometimes.

She was not neutral. She was always fighting for peace. People understand that as neutral, but she wasn't neutral when she helped the Horde kill her dad or when she helped Baine retake Thunder Bluff. She did so because the thought her dad and Magatha were threats to peace. And when she could push for treaties and stuff, she did. But she always fought those she deemed as dictators. You know who she saw as a dictator? Garrosh. She even told Thrall that before he shunned her. As he also shunned Cairne.

It was Garrosh's spies that stole the sunreaver's supplies, Aethas caught them, they threatened him. So he kept quiet. The rest of the sunreavers weren't involved at all.

Was he a civilian? A crippled elder? No? Then why was he scared? Because he was spineless. The threat was also partially directed at the blood elves... who were on treaties to jump ship already anyway at that point, so they could have gotten reinforced by the Alliance while the orcs didn't have anyone to attack them at that point.

Sometimes you have traitors in a faction.
It's not like no Alliance group has ever done that..
We'll just ignore the Dreadlords and the Twilight Father
But we don't murder or imprison the entire group for that.

We're not? Oh, I didn't know we're friends with the Scarlet Crusade now. They were pushed to extreme actions by a dreadlord and a few others, but they were many, yet we keep murdering them.

[Deathquoi]

Lol. So they should have just let the alliance establish a major staging area to destroy the horde's main city? When she chose to use her city as a staging ground for the alliance incursion into kalimdor so they could attack the horde, she made her a city a non-neutral military target. She has no one to blame but herself for what happened to theramore.

Hell, Baine even warned her about what was going to happen. She has plenty of time to get everyone out but only evacuated the civilians and kept just military people there. Therefore, it was a totally justified attack on a military target.

A justified attack would have been an actual military attack, not sneaking in a dirty bomb.

[GennGreymane]

The Horde screws over the Alliance.... CONSTANTLY! But no, its always some "rogue faction"..... POPPYCOCK!

[Radaney]

Because they are the characters that act on their emotions like humans actually do instead of being robotic save the world borefests.

Apparently people only like characters that are some perfect saints of humanity, hyper intelligent non emotional robots.

I mean Jaina who used to stick up for the Horde even after having a hardline military father then had her best Horde friend Thrall give Warchief to a madman who then alongside the rest of the Horde destroyed her entire home and killed her best friend whilst also having the Horde betray her in Dalaran. But naturally she is to hug them and love them like the non emotional robot of a human character we would all like her to be.

Naturally Genn should forget the Horde abandoned the Alliance at the Broken Shore resulting in the death of the High King of the Alliance and become a robotic boring shit of a character.

Because characters which have emotions is just plain 'bad writing'. Characters are allowed to be stupid and emotional, this doesn't equate to bad writing just because you don't like it, they don't have to highly super intelligent saint bots all the time. This actually makes the story more exciting when there's conflict.

[Hitei]

It's a military target, the civilians were gone (not thanks to Garrosh) and Jaina had that coming.
In a war like this you simply destroy the enemy.

In a war like this you simply destroy the enemy.

Guys Jaina and Genn are crazy for wanting to destroy the enemy! Only Horde are allowed to do that!

If you say so.