No more theorycrafting in PvP

[DenniZ]

Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
Its all about the average item level now.

This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?

[Gorgodeus]

You are incorrect. Only the "enhancement stats" are templated in that fashion. Primary stats are still dependent on gear in the sense that an intellect user would lose intellect if they switched to an agility piece, for example.

[morislayer]

Yes I agree. What bothers me is the lack of information going into Legion.

-How do trinkets, rings & necklaces ilvl factor into the equation?
-Why can't I buy any of the above with marks via pvp?
-Will I have to PVE to get trinkets, rings & neck?
-Will on use trinkets in PVE work in PVP?
-Will sockets bonuses come into play?
-Do enchantments work in PVP?
-Will artifact, and power ups factor into PVP?
-Furthermore, how will artifact traits work? Will everyone get full artifact talent points? Seems like a huge advantage to have rolled "correctly" and spend more time on artifact power ups in PVE to be the best in PVP.

Finally, to add on the OP, I don't see this lasting. As you said, going for builds was a huge carrot that kept many people playing PVP. It really helps peoples playstyle and talent choices.

[Deleted]

so you miss that half the classes in WoW weren't playable in PvP ?
or that most PvP gear pieces didn`t have the stat you needed to perform best in PvP ?
or maybe that twinking was horrible because everyone who already had gear oneshotted you?

in my opinion PvP is in the best state since...ever.

well, maybe the time where I killed everything with my heroic raid gear + trinkets was better. good old Dragon Soul times.

-How do trinkets, rings & necklaces ilvl factor into the equation?
-Why can't I buy any of the above with marks via pvp?
-Will I have to PVE to get trinkets, rings & neck?
-Will on use trinkets in PVE work in PVP?
-Will sockets bonuses come into play?
-Do enchantments work in PVP?
-Will artifact, and power ups factor into PVP?
-Furthermore, how will artifact traits work? Will everyone get full artifact talent points? Seems like a huge advantage to have rolled "correctly" and spend more time on artifact power ups in PVE to be the best in PVP.

funny. all those things were answered by blues a long time ago. most of them can be answered by yourself just by testing on live servers.
but I guess complaining first is more fun right?

[klaps_05]

technically in order to have fairly balanced pvp(which will never happen in wow), templates are a must. except blizzard ALWAYS underdelivers, so now we have ilevel differences crap. it doesnt matter if its 0.1% or 10%, every season from 1500 to r1 rating, you can make a play where the 0.1% hp difference or dmg difference can change the game.

the one thing i really dont like is they should have kept trinkets in the game. trinkets have 0 value right now in arena outside of a flat stat. we have had all kinds of fun and op and useless trinkets in arena and removing that flavor is pretty sad(enforcing double pvp trinket is just as bad).

[Gorgodeus]

Yes I agree. What bothers me is the lack of information going into Legion.

-How do trinkets, rings & necklaces ilvl factor into the equation?
-Why can't I buy any of the above with marks via pvp?
-Will I have to PVE to get trinkets, rings & neck?
-Will on use trinkets in PVE work in PVP?
-Will sockets bonuses come into play?
-Do enchantments work in PVP?
-Will artifact, and power ups factor into PVP?
-Furthermore, how will artifact traits work? Will everyone get full artifact talent points? Seems like a huge advantage to have rolled "correctly" and spend more time on artifact power ups in PVE to be the best in PVP.

Finally, to add on the OP, I don't see this lasting. As you said, going for builds was a huge carrot that kept many people playing PVP. It really helps peoples playstyle and talent choices.

All of this has been answered by Blizzard in Blue posts. But I will try to address them for you.

All set bonuses and trinket procs are disabled in PvP.
Socket bonuses are meaningless in PvP.
Enchants are disabled in PvP.

In regards to Artifacts, traits that do not buff any type of "enhancement stat" such as haste, crit etc, whether it be an overall increase or one that affects one spell/ability, are in effect. The ones that do affect those stats are disabled in PvP.

[Moozart]

Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
Its all about the average item level now.

This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?

Sounds like someone who already misses being able to "bully" people in pvp

[morislayer]

so you miss that half the classes in WoW weren't playable in PvP ?
or that most PvP gear pieces didn`t have the stat you needed to perform best in PvP ?
or maybe that twinking was horrible because everyone who already had gear oneshotted you?

in my opinion PvP is in the best state since...ever.

well, maybe the time where I killed everything with my heroic raid gear + trinkets was better. good old Dragon Soul times.



funny. all those things were answered by blues a long time ago. most of them can be answered by yourself just by testing on live servers.
but I guess complaining first is more fun right?

I don't spend my days researching blue posts, and no I can't test any of them, I am not on Beta. But I guess being a Snide keyboard warrior is more fun right?

Also thanks Gorg.

[enzi]

As a fan of theory crafting, I can also say that PvP never has been in a better place.

It's an extreme example but I had this in BC arena 2s. Warri/Druid mirror match. I had worse gear (not much) and was missing around 1-2k mana and spirit as the other druid. I went oom and the other druid had like 2-3k mana left. At that time I was very convinced that the match had been very different if I had same gear.

Gear was always a love/hate relationship, but I'm glad it's finally gone. The new system also makes it easier for Blizz to tweak values without breaking anything else. The pros outweighs the cons by far.

[Gorgodeus]

I don't spend my days researching blue posts, and no I can't test any of them, I am not on Beta. But I guess being a Snide keyboard warrior is more fun right?

Also thanks Gorg.

I also forgot to add that Artifact power does come into play. A person with a fully unlocked Artifact weapon will be stronger than one that has a weapon not unlocked fully. To be honest, on Beta one was much better off gearing up via PvE to get geared for PvP. Gear from PvP boxes was 805 ilvl and gear from heroic dungeons was 825, to give you an idea. Not to mention AP (artifact power) gained from PvP was simply a lot less than one could get from world quests and dungeons.

[-Nurot]

Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
Its all about the average item level now.

This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?

I had to laugh the other day when PvE players were talking in my guild about how great PvP is now seeing how you have no gear to acquire. I quickly chimed in that, yes it's amazing and PvE should function the exact same way. Quickly I got responses like "LOL, no." "No that would be horrible." and the likes.

From what I gather people are inherently lazy, and most PvE players don't want to farm PvP gear. They expect to be able to just jump in one day and be competitive. The other way around though and they HAVE to have the carrot to string them along in PvE, and people should have to earn gear because that shows people that they "worked hard", but don't you dare suggest they should have to earn the same thing for PvP.

I'm sure I will still PvP, but I too feel like it's a step back. If people think it's not a step back, then I propose, we change all gear to simply; name with quality color, an item level and a word for primary stat (just the word intellect, but no designated amount) and then just have the templates work in PvE, just like they do in PvP. We could then turn the PvE talents into a prestige system that people could constantly reset and re-earn for cosmetics.

It almost feels like, it's the same people who complain that LFR ruined the game that also like this new change. They want end game raiding to be the only viable way of gearing and they want to feel special, so everyone has cater to them.

[Deleted]

Since the PvP templates are now active it appaerently does not matter anymore what stats are on your gear. Not the primairy stats or the secondary stats.
Its all about the average item level now.

This means you might as well equip an agility piece as a caster now if it has an higher item level then your current trinket. Higher item level = beter stat return according to the template and thus you end up more powerfull.

This totally demolishes another aspect of the game imo. I used to love going for a haste build or a mastery build as an Affliction warlock, or getting to 30% crit as a Fury warrior after that going for mastery. All that is gone. You get a preplanned set of stats according to the template no matter what gear you got on and what stats are on it. It only can be improved by improving ilvl. Sort of like the minimum ilvl needed for dungeons back in Cataclysm.

I guess it was needed for the sake of "balance" but come on I'm sure this can be achieved in other ways.

Anybody else feel like this is a major step backward?

Well, while i agree with some people on that templates are a must for the sake of balancing pvp, and it sure brings a few good things, it needs some improvement in my opinion. Currently for the class/spec I'm playing i rather have world pvp and engage players in fights outside instanced pvp where the templates apply. In the open world I have an edge on HP vs other non tank players (I'm a tank) and i can do decent damage while with the template on my damage sucks. I do realize that as a tank my damage should suck, the thing is the pvp templates also gimp my SURVIVABILITY. Right now the templates are weird for some classes (not cool to have warlocks with more HP and survival than tanks really) and the fact is while in the open world the average non tank player will have 300k+ hp while I have 500k+, with the templates that same player will have 500k+ (600k+ if a lock) while I'll have the same 500k+ as I would without the template. The damage diference dps classes do over tanks in pvp ends up being a factor as they end out burning my hp faster than i burn them as we all have pretty similar hp. You may argue tanks have def cd's to pop, that's true, but i have been pvping quite a bit and know my cd's (there arent that many left.. PRUNING!) and from this experience I can tell atm theres not much point playing a tank in pvp even to carry flags (alright it's meant to be balanced for lvl 110!). Finally you may argue then don't play a tank, but I hope you guys can get more constructive than that. Basically much of what I-m complaining about comes out of the templates, it's just more fun to have duels or some open world pvp atm for me as a tank.

I Wont really reply to any L2p replies tbh, It's just a waste of time.

Peace all.

[Hashcrypt]

The only thing I like about the pvp templates is Blizz's ability to tweak pvp numbers without affecting PvE. Everything else is shit.

Gear is pointless.
Stats are predetermined
Zero creativity with gearing
Oh, and worst of all, due to the ridiculous damage to health ratios in PVP templates, we're all effectively wearing riot gear to a pillow fight.

[DenniZ]

The only thing I like about the pvp templates is Blizz's ability to tweak pvp numbers without affecting PvE. Everything else is shit.

Gear is pointless.
Stats are predetermined
Zero creativity with gearing
Oh, and worst of all, due to the ridiculous damage to health ratios in PVP templates, we're all effectively wearing riot gear to a pillow fight.

Yeah I'm having a hard time adjusting to those 40k Shadowburn crits.

[Hashcrypt]

A screenshot from a BG last night. God I love "balanced" PvP!!

[Deianeira]

I don't spend my days researching blue posts, and no I can't test any of them, I am not on Beta. But I guess being a Snide keyboard warrior is more fun right?

Also thanks Gorg.

Well if you dont research blue posts then how do you expect them to relay their information to you? Perhaps a personal phonecall? Or perhaps you want the one of the devs come over to you and have a one on one walkthrough with you personally?

[Hashcrypt]

Well if you dont research blue posts then how do you expect them to relay their information to you? Perhaps a personal phonecall? Or perhaps you want the one of the devs come over to you and have a one on one walkthrough with you personally?

Depending on the age of the person you're talking to...yes...that's exactly what they expect...

[Raldazzar]

I have actually really enjoyed it.. I've had some amazing 1v1s, teamfights etc..

My wife and I do not enjoy rated pvp much anymore, so the new system for us, works perfectly :P you progress through the ranks even if you just do normal BG's etc.. this seems fantastic to us! and the template bit means we aren't left behind week after week as people get conq capped constantly.

I also feel 10% is fair. it gives those bleeding edge min/maxers something to aim for.. because, 10% stronger is still 10% stronger. but it gives those who are good but haven't the time to grind it out as much perhaps a chance to face them. the hardcore guy still has the edge. but if the weaker guy is a better player, he should overcome it.

I actually think they nailed this one personally.

[Tya]

so you miss that half the classes in WoW weren't playable in PvP ?

What makes you think that will change? Some specs are so badly designed that no stat template is going to save them, ie 90% of caster specs. There's a reason why PvP right now is 10 melee vs 10 melee.

[meob]

I found it pretty annoying to grind out the conquest points before actually being where I will end up anyways - and never look back. It was just tedious.

It's not like there was much choice even, there was one correct way to itemize given the limited stat combinations which is essentailly the same as oldschool talent trees with 12 bazillion points you better not screw up.

Last time I checked, first season pvp gear was 815/845/875 (?) or something depending on your rating. Template+6-7%, which is all the difference.