Legion: Elemental Specific

[Rezhka]

Why are people keep comparing Ele shaman with Mages? I mean, if you really love to crunch a big number on the meter then why bother to roll Ele in the first place? It feels like Mage is the only range dps out there to compare with.

[Deleted]

Why are people keep comparing Ele shaman with Mages? I mean, if you really love to crunch a big number on the meter then why bother to roll Ele in the first place? It feels like Mage is the only range dps out there to compare with.

Because they are leading the pack of ranged DPS at this moment. World first guilds will probably stack mages.

I think it's silly too though. Compared to all ranged average, elemental will be fine.

Elemental will probably have one of the best if not THE best burst of all specs come raiding too. Ascendance plus improved FE and raiding trinkets = sick.

[miffy23]

Because they are leading the pack of ranged DPS at this moment. World first guilds will probably stack mages.

I think it's silly too though. Compared to all ranged average, elemental will be fine.

Elemental will probably have one of the best if not THE best burst of all specs come raiding too. Ascendance plus improved FE and raiding trinkets = sick.

That's the only thing it excels at right now, and that is usually not enough.
Especially since even a little bit of movement destroys that burst.

The DPS is ok, but it's not the raw DPS that Mythic raiders are concerned with. No spec will be so low on pure numbers that they won't be usable. It's the situational flexibility, fight-by-fight utility and general usefulness on top of DPS that determines those slots.

I should once again stress that this is simply for progress raiding.

[Gaucho-]

Why are people keep comparing Ele shaman with Mages? I mean, if you really love to crunch a big number on the meter then why bother to roll Ele in the first place? It feels like Mage is the only range dps out there to compare with.

Very few are comparing damage of Elemental to Mage specs. Its about utility, mechanics and other things - basically everything, except damage.

[gambit998]

Very few are comparing damage of Elemental to Mage specs. Its about utility, mechanics and other things - basically everything, except damage.

Exactly this....i am peeved that they are currently the best in EVERYTHING. More peeved that they have more utility than a utility caster (Ele Shaman)

[Gaucho-]

Exactly this....i am peeved that they are currently the best in EVERYTHING. More peeved that they have more utility than a utility caster (Ele Shaman)

Yeah, as long time Elemental player, my jaw basically dropped into an endless void resulting in a minutes long shock numbness when I saw mage movement abilities.

[elcapone]

Because they are leading the pack of ranged DPS at this moment. World first guilds will probably stack mages.

I think it's silly too though. Compared to all ranged average, elemental will be fine.

Elemental will probably have one of the best if not THE best burst of all specs come raiding too. Ascendance plus improved FE and raiding trinkets = sick.

Can you clarify this statement, if we have the best burst spec which relies on 3 min cd, is it only useful for a burn phase but wouldn't classes with executes perform better?

[Odintdk]

Why are people keep comparing Ele shaman with Mages? I mean, if you really love to crunch a big number on the meter then why bother to roll Ele in the first place? It feels like Mage is the only range dps out there to compare with.

Because maybe i wanna play the game as a fucking Elemental shaman and be able to compete with every other dps as promised by blizzard? You know, when they claimed they're only removing both hybrid classes "utility" AND pure classes damage superiority, few years ago? Yet we lost our utility and surprise, still can't compete with something like a mage.

[Gaucho-]

Because maybe i wanna play the game as a fucking Elemental shaman and be able to compete with every other dps as promised by blizzard? You know, when they claimed they're only removing both hybrid classes "utility" AND pure classes damage superiority, few years ago? Yet we lost our utility and surprise, still can't compete with something like a mage.

Yep, and on top of this all niches have been shifted. Any mage spec, for example, is able to do decent AoE damage with fire mage standing out.

[Jenerena]

Stuff like AOE needing ramp up meaning you need to build maelstrom to use earth quake whereas a lot of other specs can get right into it.

I've read this a few times and I personally don't find the ramp time too bad at all with good overloads. I think other specs have worse ramp up times, but then that's based on what I've read/heard, not from experience.

Only ice fury powered frost shocks for instant casts meaning bad mobility.

Yea mobility isn't great. Gotta say though it's waking me up a bit as really having to plan my movement and does make the gameplay a bit more interesting. That said, I don't see any reason why they had to take SWG off us, or at least keep it and give it another name.

It is quite funny that mages keep getting mentioned here. It's actually the same in the warlock forums right now. Maybe elemental isn't that bad, but mages are just too damn good .

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Yep, and on top of this all niches have been shifted. Any mage spec, for example, is able to do decent AoE damage with fire mage standing out.

Are you trying to say that frost and arcane aoe is better than elemental's? If so how do you know? Just curious. I would say elemental AOE is decent that's all. Not the best, but decent.

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Exactly this....i am peeved that they are currently the best in EVERYTHING. More peeved that they have more utility than a utility caster (Ele Shaman)

In what context? In a dungeon situation, I think we have quite a good arsenal. We have an aoe stun, EQ knockdown, short interrupts, aoe hex, off healing, group speed boost. Of course it depends somewhat what mythic+ dungeons will be like (will we need to individually CC, for example, or just AOE everything super fast and pop CDs). I was actually reading an in-depth discussion in the mage forums recently (I have a mage alt) about mages actually lacking utility compared to an elemental shaman in mythic+. Of course, there were for/against arguments with this as the thread developed but there were some very interesting points. I get the impression elemental has very favourable utility, but then I'm talking about smaller group situations. In raiding, utility is a bit moot as there are more people.

[Gaucho-]

Are you trying to say that frost and arcane aoe is better than elemental's? If so how do you know? Just curious. I would say elemental AOE is decent that's all. Not the best, but decent.

I mean exactly this what I wrote. Niches have been shifted, and pure DPS specs which basically werent able to do AoE/cleave/"ST" damage are now atleast decent at them and really great in some of the catagories. On top of the other utility, overdosed mobility, etc.

[Kralljin]

It is quite funny that mages keep getting mentioned here. It's actually the same in the warlock forums right now. Maybe elemental isn't that bad, but mages are just too damn good .

Warlocks at least lost some stuff with Legion, like most classes.

Dark Bargain gone, Demonic Circle needs to be talented, Shadowfury received a casttime.

But Mages? They just kept everything, received Baseline Ice Barrier on top of that.

It's not like they already had a supreme array of utility skills.

[Gaucho-]

In what context? In a dungeon situation, I think we have quite a good arsenal. We have an aoe stun, EQ knockdown, short interrupts, aoe hex, off healing. Of course it depends somewhat what mythic+ dungeons will be like (will we need to individually CC, for example, or just AOE everything super fast and pop CDs). I was actually reading an in-depth discussion in the mage forums recently (I have a mage alt) about mages actually lacking utility compared to an elemental shaman in mythic+. Of course, there were for/against arguments with this as the thread developed but there were some very good points.

You cant have stun and mass hex totem at the same time. Off healing is a bad joke, even for healing up ourselves (OOM after 3-4 casts). EQ knockdown and the short interrupt is great, I must agree. Elemental is generally good for high level mythic+ dungeons. But the AoE ramp up will be a problem in raids. As for mages, they dont need more utility on top of what they've already. People will always whine if they cant judge things objectivily. You'll have a guaranteed slot in whatever content you're doing in this game, as mage, if you dont lack "raid" awareness.

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Warlocks at least lost some stuff with Legion, like most classes.

Dark Bargain gone, Demonic Circle needs to be talented, Shadowfury received a casttime.

But Mages? They just kept everything, received Baseline Ice Barrier on top of that.

It's not like they already had a supreme array of utility skills.

Yep, if rogues and mages were more along the lines of warlocks and to some degree hunters (lost "all" buffs, Deterrence) then we'd be fine.

[Jenerena]

You cant have stun and mass hex totem at the same time. Off healing is a bad joke, even for healing up ourselves (OOM after 3-4 casts). EQ knockdown and the short interrupt is great, I must agree. Elemental is generally good for high level mythic+ dungeons. But the AoE ramp up will be a problem in raids. As for mages, they dont need more utility on top of what they've already. People will always whine if they cant judge things objectivily. You'll have a guaranteed slot in whatever content you're doing in this game, as mage, if you dont lack "raid" awareness.

No you're right in the first point. Stun totem on it's own is fantastic though. Off healing isn't that bad. Is it better for other hybrid casters? No idea. There is a nice healing talent though (can't remember the name).
As to your last point, do top guilds actually stack mages? Genuinely interested. If they don't, why not? Surely every caster in a top guild would be better off playing a mage right? Just the impression I'm getting from these threads.

[Gaucho-]

No you're right in the first point. Stun totem on it's own is fantastic though. Off healing isn't that bad. Is it better for other hybrid casters? No idea. There is a nice healing talent though (can't remember the name).
As to your last point, do top guilds actually stack mages? Genuinely interested. If they don't, why not? Surely every caster in a top guild would be better off playing a mage right? Just the impression I'm getting from these threads.

Yep, there are two traits for Healing Surge in Fist of Ra-den (dunno why, but this is a different discussion). One increases its healing by 15%/rank and the other is a emergency proc at a certain %HP amount. The first one you'll take on your way to greater traits, but the two last ranks of the emergency heal are the last two traits you pick. But yet it still doesnt heal for much. Its okay, since you actually never try to heal yourselves unless it saves you from certain death.

Top guilds already have 3 mage slots, and to answer if all decent raiding Elementals have mage twinks: yes, atleast everyone I know. Binkenstein, our front tier theory crafter even rerolled mage for Legion.

[Kralljin]

No you're right in the first point. Stun totem on it's own is fantastic though. Off healing isn't that bad. Is it better for other hybrid casters? No idea. There is a nice healing talent though (can't remember the name).

Offhealing is bad.

Even with the Protection of the Elements trait, Healing Surge heals for like 150k on a 2M+ Health pool, after 5 heals you're out mana.

So you "do nothing" for about 10 seconds to heal yourself for ~60% of your healthpool.

Balance is ... well, they have Swiftmend with Resto affinity but forces them out of Moonkin form, hots do jackshit and Healing Touch worse than Healing Surge.

In a PvE *raid* scenario, Hunters with Exhilaration are probably better off than hybrids, simply because it's instant and does something right off the bat.

As to your last point, do top guilds actually stack mages? Genuinely interested. If they don't, why not? Surely every caster in a top guild would be better off playing a mage right? Just the impression I'm getting from these threads.

In WoD it was pretty common to see 2-3 Mages / Warlocks / Hunters in hardcore raids, this led to the situation that there were 1-2 spots left for SP / Balance / Ele (At least in Highmaul / BRF).

Do you want to have a raid full of mages?
No, first off, if half of your raid goes for the same exact items, a lot of gear will be wasted and major fights will ensue over any "mage piece", a well geared Balance druid is still better than a shitty geared mage, very true during the first tier where the gap from Dungeons to raids is quite big.

Second, if mage gets nerfed midtier, you're fucked.

A balanced raid is due that still better than a raid that just stacks the strongest Class, which however doesn't justify the the position of certain classes.

[freddy090909]

I've read this a few times and I personally don't find the ramp time too bad at all with good overloads. I think other specs have worse ramp up times, but then that's based on what I've read/heard, not from experience.

I agree that the ramp up on EQ really isn't as bad as people make it out to be, however comparing it to the WoD CL -> EQ model, it is significantly longer. That said, even a few extra GCDs is enough to completely screw you on AoE (particularly in a dungeon environment with very short-duration pulls).

The biggest problems with EQ are simply that:
1) It does absolutely horrible damage - the removal of enhanced chain lightning means EQ >has< to be weak (as it is directly competing with ES).
2) It has a 10 second duration - so not only do we have to spend a few GCDs to build the maelstrom, but we also have to have the mobs be alive and stand in one place for a whole 10 seconds to get the full value out of it.
3) No CD gating alongside a somewhat easy to gain resource cost means that Blizzard has to balance around our "potential" damage instead of simply making our "general" AoE damage competitive (e.g. in an environment with 5+ long-lasting targets where we can maintain 3-4 EQs, we would be powerful).

[Deleted]

Second, if mage gets nerfed midtier, you're fucked.

You, Sir, just made my day

[Menubrea]

It is quite funny that mages keep getting mentioned here. It's actually the same in the warlock forums right now. Maybe elemental isn't that bad, but mages are just too damn good .

This is basically what it is, yes. Mages have too much utility, especially for a ranged class.

Second, if mage gets nerfed midtier, you're fucked.

I'm gonna go with no. Even as a low to average DPS spec, Mages bring enough to the table to justify its position.

[Kralljin]

You, Sir, just made my day

Well, thing is, Fire as best spec starting into an expansion is a bad sign (Or good if you hate Mages).

In the first MoP tier, Fire became the best spec once you had a decent amount of raid gear, we were progressing on Sha of Fear HC, then this happened:

The periodic damage from Combustion has been reduced by 50%.
The critical strike chance multiplier from Critical Mass has been reduced to 1.25 (was 1.5).

So the Dps of our Mage was gutted via hotfix and his Combustion was kinda part of our strat to kill Sha of Fear HC.

I'm gonna go with no. Even as a low to average DPS spec, Mages bring enough to the table to justify its position.

A raid full of low to average dps is a bad raid.

Remember this statement is about "what if your raid is full of mages" not "will mages see any play if".