Sooo...What spec now?

[Turturin the Warlock]

Well, the whole discussion about the dragons is a bit of a red herring. Are we overpowered in that fight? Yes, but it is a specific situation that really doesn't occur that often - two targets spread 40yds apart that are both up the entire fight.

And it's ok. Blizzard actually wants different specs to shine at different encounters. What (they have said) they don't want is for a single spec to shine on every (or almost every encounter), which is why MM hunters and Fire Mages seem a bit out of line.

These nerfs to warlock cleave are ok, we will still be quite strong there. But the nerf to Single target is not, and there are multiple ways to compensate us single target without helping our cleave:
- buff portals
- buff imp
- There's even room to buff doomguard a bit without infernal/lord of flames

Single target matters on a bunch of fights in just the first tier:
Nythendra
Ursoc
Spider guy.
Krosus
Most of Star Augur fight


Just seems to me that there was no reason for such a hard nerf to ST - we were already behind hunters, mages, windwalkers, demon hunters. shadow priests too but pretty sure the STM nerf took care of that.

The reason for the nerf (bring talents in line) is fine and I support it. But the lack of ST compensation is troubling. Fights aren't patchwork, but ST damage still matters quite a bit (both burst and sustained)

[benjaminandjen]

Will wreak havoc help me tonight? Or do I have to wait til EN? Does this build stick with roaring blaze, or backdraft? I want to believe!

[Gaidax]

Well it is no secret that there will be massive numeric changes first tier in first weeks. I, personally, believe that outliers, such as WW or Fire Mages will be nerfbatted one way or another. I do not really think Destruction needs a buff, maybe something smallish like slightly more powerful Chaos Bolt, for example - other than that it has its strength which is pretty significant one and can be gamed around quite a bit by skilled players. Affliction and Demo - they appear to be weak, but it may be deceptive, for example Demo has a hidden ace in its sleeve, which I am not terribly fond of, but still and Affliction is again not as bad as people think it may be.

Honestly, I get the mechanic complaints much better than I get numbers complaints, for example for the life of me I can't figure out why Blizzard had to mess with Destruction, but for example Affliction and Demo - I think both were good steps forward.

But numbers? Least of my concerns, the difference between OP and useless and vice versa can happen with merely one number change and contrary to popular (and retarded) belief - Blizzard DO in fact keep watchful eye on polar opposites of OP and shit and shake these up quite a bit, ESPECIALLY with expansion launch and first raid tier.

[Deleted]

@Gaidax I gotta admit that I didnt raidtest a whole lot in the Legion Beta and you seem to have played quite a bit. How was the standing for Destruction on ST in Emerald Nightmare pre nurf and now? How much did we lose and how much did we gain with the Incin buff? What do you think on what Itemsetup Destro will be "balanced" around for EN/NH...do we need the Shardgenlegendary for our AoE to be more fluid (in my experience it felt rather clunky to maintain several RoFs)? Do you have an estimation on how much damage we lost on an optimal Cleave Encounter with the RB Nurf (perma 2 Targets à la Twin Ogron) and are we still Toptier in Cleave after the RB Nurf?

[Gaidax]

Prenerf I ran with blaze and it was okay, I was usually above most except for rogues which were retarded with rupture but nerfbatted since then.

There is no real Twin Ogron encounter so hard to tell, the nerf is strong but I am confident that specifically on Twin Ogron even with this nerf nobody can touch Destruction pretty much and this is the reason I am sure it will be fine because this Twin Ogron cleave is essential land almost gamebreaking on encounter such as Star Augur at last phase.

So in short, there is no spec like Destruction for cleave, simply head and above anything there is except for maybe Monk and that is on three targets.

Really, only thing I truly struggled on as Destruction is burst AoE - that really makes me despair even with Cataclysm.

[Duckz0rs]

Really, only thing I truly struggled on as Destruction is burst AoE - that really makes me despair even with Cataclysm.

So if burst AoE is fairly low even with Cataclysm, does F&B finally have a place if the rest of the raid can't pick up the slack? (which in and of itself sounds a bit unlikely)

[Ammanas]

Well, the whole discussion about the dragons is a bit of a red herring. Are we overpowered in that fight? Yes, but it is a specific situation that really doesn't occur that often - two targets spread 40yds apart that are both up the entire fight.

And it's ok. Blizzard actually wants different specs to shine at different encounters. What (they have said) they don't want is for a single spec to shine on every (or almost every encounter), which is why MM hunters and Fire Mages seem a bit out of line.

These nerfs to warlock cleave are ok, we will still be quite strong there. But the nerf to Single target is not, and there are multiple ways to compensate us single target without helping our cleave:
- buff portals
- buff imp
- There's even room to buff doomguard a bit without infernal/lord of flames

Single target matters on a bunch of fights in just the first tier:
Nythendra
Ursoc
Spider guy.
Krosus
Most of Star Augur fight


Just seems to me that there was no reason for such a hard nerf to ST - we were already behind hunters, mages, windwalkers, demon hunters. shadow priests too but pretty sure the STM nerf took care of that.

The reason for the nerf (bring talents in line) is fine and I support it. But the lack of ST compensation is troubling. Fights aren't patchwork, but ST damage still matters quite a bit (both burst and sustained)

Its pretty funny that they tried to balance out the RF nerf by buffing incinerate which is just another spell that gets Havoc'd. Your suggestions are much better. There are plenty of other options too, IE buff Service/Supremacy or change Channel Demonfire mechanics so it only hits current target and does significantly more damage. I really like Wreak Havoc gameplay wise and hope they realize its possible to buff ST without increasing our OP 2 target. If they don't we're probably going to see WH nerfs to go along with any single target buffs.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Prenerf I ran with blaze and it was okay, I was usually above most except for rogues which were retarded with rupture but nerfbatted since then.

You were usually ahead on single target?? Calling BS, or calling your hunters, windwalkers, demon hunters, and mages shit.

Yes, cleave we are strong, but only stronger than MM hunters and WW when the targets are spread, and those classes trash our burst aoe as well. I appreciate you advocating for not jumping off cliffs and not wearing tin foil hats. In general, I agree. But you're starting to lean too far in the opposite direction with claims like the above.

Or maybe you were using cheese gear for testing, or maybe you had full artifact and your raid didn't and you're not taking that into account. Either way, I can assure you when all things are equal, we were definitely not top tier single target before the nerf, and we will be low to mid-tier after.

[benjaminandjen]

Prenerf I ran with blaze and it was okay, I was usually above most except for rogues which were retarded with rupture but nerfbatted since then.

There is no real Twin Ogron encounter so hard to tell, the nerf is strong but I am confident that specifically on Twin Ogron even with this nerf nobody can touch Destruction pretty much and this is the reason I am sure it will be fine because this Twin Ogron cleave is essential land almost gamebreaking on encounter such as Star Augur at last phase.

So in short, there is no spec like Destruction for cleave, simply head and above anything there is except for maybe Monk and that is on three targets.

Really, only thing I truly struggled on as Destruction is burst AoE - that really makes me despair even with Cataclysm.

I was just looking at your build and you're not using wreak havoc. Is soul conduit just better on live, for now?

[Gaidax]

I was just looking at your build and you're not using wreak havoc. Is soul conduit just better on live, for now?

Live? Who cares about that... Destruction is shit live at 100 and I literally have that build because funzies and Wreck is not terribly useful for invasions where most mobs drop dead in like 2 GCDs and for the rest normal Havoc is just fine.

- - - Updated - - -

You were usually ahead on single target?? Calling BS, or calling your hunters, windwalkers, demon hunters, and mages shit.

Most does not mean all and yes I had good performance single target, I can also play this game and call BS on your warlocks who could not manage beat mages and hunters Single Target with RB at 60%. DH and WW much more difficult yes, but Fire Mages? lel... Maybe now with RB at 25% it's tamer, but back at 60% single target was definitely fine and better than most if you knew what you are doing.

[Wenoxar]

@Gaidax

If FnB would affect immolate and Cata had 30s cd, imo destro's aoe would be much better. What do you think? What'd fix destro's aoe?

And if you remember about these iskar adds what I've said. Imo its still kinda bs that you have to stop doing aoe in order to refresh immolates. Otherwise sustained aoe would be pretty good, IMO.

[Gaidax]

@Gaidax

If FnB would affect immolate and Cata had 30s cd, imo destro's aoe would be much better. What do you think? What'd fix destro's aoe?

And if you remember about these iskar adds what I've said. Imo its still kinda bs that you have to stop doing aoe in order to refresh immolates. Otherwise sustained aoe would be pretty good, IMO.

If F&B would spread immolate it would be pretty amazing. Honestly if F&B would do what F&B does even as a toggle with reduced damage modifier it would be amazing (well duh really), it was nerfed because it was bloody crazy to begin with (and made passive so that various "less talented" players would stand a chance).

Really when you have immolates rolling on couple of targets - you can pretty much spam RoF with conflags in-between.

[n0n3]

With destro you're either somewhat decent single target or AoE, you cannot have both with the new talent system.
I think blizzard should make some of the AoE talents baseline and replace them with something else but it's too late now, maybe on the next expansion 2 years from now, warlocks will be top 3 dps again and only if they replace the current dev team in charge of warlocks.

[hahandi1994]

Don't worry, I'm sure when Legion goes live, all the problems locks have will magically disappear.

Warlocks are extremely OP on the beta, hence all these nerfs.

Yeah. I Think it will be ok, don't worry

[Deleted]

playing demo for sure. im banking on the post release overreaction buffs. wish me luck

[Deleted]

@caliente: Good luck! Really hope you have it, as I quite liked playing demo

While I personally also don't follow the "world is ending" warlocks are dead attitude, I do have to say that these logs Gaidax posted look really suspicious. Especially the first one who was quite a bit ahead even in single target fights. I do think that especially the first but also potentially the others are just a case of a player deeply specced into the artifact vs. the others that are not. No way to proof it, just a "gut feeling".

What I'm a bit upset about is that some people here are talking about "If you're good", "if you play right", etc. but they never mention what the actual things are that you need to look out for. What does make a "good" destro lock? Without roaring blaze, I'm not even sure there are that many things that you can do wrong aside from forgetting to reapply havoc. At least roaring blaze did have somewhat of a skillcap involved, like deciding when to pandemic immolate, etc.

[Orwell7]

@Gaidax

I have linked you numerous logs of numerous other specs that is in the ballpark of OP Wreak Havoc.
That's what I meant by disproven, because the logs you have linked are _NOT_ overpowered compared to other specs!

no comment?

[FelPlague]

Destro just got nerfed by a pretty large margin with the Roaring Blaze nerf. Any consensus on what spec is the goal for Legion? The sad thing is I still think it's destro, because Afflic and Demo just have too many issues with handling mechanics in a fight.

so do you know why is got nerfed?


ALLLL of these together, made immolate tick for INSANE amounts of damage, it was ridiculous on live, and will be EVEN MORE insane come nighthold... so yeah they nerfed it for a good reason...

cause on single target fights, or 2 target fights, these all together, would make you deal INSANE amounts of damage

- - - Updated - - -

demo will still be best for single target and sustain, destro will be best for 2-3 targets and burst, affliction will be best for 4 or more targets, and self healing

[Deleted]

I don't get why people are pointing out Dragons of Nightmare as a good Destruction fight when it is a ST fight with occasional 3target against short-lived adds. Unless you care about normal and heroic progression, it is not a fight for Destruction to shine...

[FelPlague]

I don't get why people are pointing out Dragons of Nightmare as a good Destruction fight when it is a ST fight with occasional 3target against short-lived adds. Unless you care about normal and heroic progression, it is not a fight for Destruction to shine...

uhh... its not single target... it has 2 dragons... what are you talking about..?
you put havoc on one, run to the other and kill it, putting havoc on them when you have to switch