Protection legion Discussion

[Hostile]

That despite ten years of muscle memory vengeance feels very weird to play. Was there a need to be an ass?

Idk, it feels pretty much the same, I got into the groove of Vengeance weaving as soon as I made my WA.
Especially if you played with Heroic Strike before, it should feel right at home.

[Aseyhe]

I realized that I made a mistake with some of the simulations I did regarding whether or not it's worth using Revenge for Single Target. After adjusting for that mistake, and also adding in logic to wait for Shield Slam to be available before using SBlock, it is in fact not worth using Revenge single-target. It is both a survivability and damage loss to use Revenge ST. The exception to that being you should always use Revenge the GCD before Shield Slam (because getting a Dev reset there is worse than using Revenge).

With Revenge: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...7e365a111e43f8
Without Revenge: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...65763045ab0986

(Note: These sims don't take FR into account. With FR, not using Revenge is even more of a DPS gain.)

So what do you gain/lose by prioritizing Dev>Rev?

+Shield Block Uptime
+DPS
-around 15 rage
(so basically there's no negative)

What about multi-target?

On 2+ targets, using Revenge is a DPS gain.
As for survivability, it doesn't matter how many targets there are, it's still a loss in survivability to use Rev>Dev. That doesn't mean you should though. It's not worth giving up that damage for the relatively small increase to survivability.

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification because the decision is more complicated than "use revenge" or "don't use revenge". For the purpose of resetting shield slam, devastate is more valuable the more time is left on shield slam's cooldown, and conversely less valuable the less time is left on shield slam's cooldown.

I don't have time to look at all the effects of the decision right now, but just for illustrative purposes (and to hopefully motivate someone else to do the work for me!), I will consider rage generation.

Revenge: generates 5 rage
Devastate: as a modest simplification (neglecting that we have further chances to reset shield slam after a failed reset), generates rage equal to
(shield slam reset chance) * (number of shield slams gained on a reset) * shield slam rage
= 0.3*(number of GCDs left on shield slam CD - 1)/6 * 15

where I subtract 1 because of devastate's GCD.

Here is a brief table of the results.

# GCDs on SS CD	Avg rage from devastate
5	3
4	2.25
3	1.5
2	0.75
1	0

Now, we already knew that devastate was inferior for rage generation, but the point is that every benefit of devastate's shield slam reset effect suffers the same depreciation as shield slam's remaining cooldown decreases. When studying the devastate versus revenge decision, you need to factor in the time remaining on shield slam's cooldown. I will attempt a more thorough analysis when I have more time if you (or someone else) has not done so already.

Edit: I actually missed your mention of using revenge with 1 gcd on shield slam's cooldown, so here is perhaps a simpler approach. Is (revenge only with 1gcd left on shield slam) better than (revenge only with 2 or fewer gcds left on shield slam), say?

[Kueson]

Trinkets for defensive ranking, if people are interested.

<snip>

Where would you put Darkmoon Deck: Immortality on the list? Only goes to 850, but 1233 strength and 290-870 random armor seems strong compared to some of those.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Where would you put Darkmoon Deck: Immortality on the list? Only goes to 850, but 1233 strength and 290-870 random armor seems strong compared to some of those.

A, depending on the fight. Obviously, if it's a fight with mostly magical damage, the Armor isn't really going to help you.

[Alaexaender]

Edit: I actually missed your mention of using revenge with 1 gcd on shield slam's cooldown, so here is perhaps a simpler approach. Is (revenge only with 1gcd left on shield slam) better than (revenge only with 2 or fewer gcds left on shield slam), say?[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong on the reasoning in this, for rage gen:

SS has a 6 GCD cooldown, so an average of 2.5 rage per GCD. This means that when you proc SS with Devastate, you are gaining 2.5 rage for every GCD in advance which SS happens (For example, with no haste, a proc at 7.5 seconds generates 12.5 rage, while a proc with 3 seconds remaining generates 5). Immediately, we can see that revenge is better than devastate when there are 2 or less GCDs before SS comes off CD, as it is a guaranteed 5 rage compared to a 30% chance of 5 rage. (Working on how to find the math for where the breakpont should be)

[Deleted]

Hello guys, i believe i've found a potential bug, but not sure as this might be intended (would be very stupid if that was the case).
I might be the only one here using "Pure Rage Potions" as pre pots, i do that to start an encounter with either my mitigation going early or to have 3stacks of focused raged already, but i noticed that if i did not use any of the rage (75from the potion) i would end up with only 20 once pulling, the 20 remaining is the one generated by the charge, so i do lose ALL of the rage from the potion!
I can not understand what would be the point of that frankly.
Can anyone confirm that this is working as intended or you should i make a bug report?

- - - Updated - - -

Another question here.
I'm actually ranked #1 tank on my realm on worldoflogs.com (archimonde EU), i'm curious what you guys think of tank rankings overall. Should i only focus on prot warriors rankings if any?

[Deleted]

They put in a mechanism to reduce your resources at the beginning of a raid encounter to certain values. Before that you could swap between cat and bear form as a moonkin to build your astral power up to 100, don't ask why that works but it did. Right now this only brings very limited benefits. This might be another step in trying to reduce pre pull shenanigans like using old set bonuses in the past.

[meoph]

Yeah, it becomes super easy with WA, no need to macro. Mine just shows the Icon of the skill I need to press next, and if I got both buffs up, it prioritizes the Vengeance: Ignore Pain above FR, so you won't ever get confused.

Here's my setup:

You don't have to use it all, just rip out the Vengeance ones and IP (if you need it). And just delete the rest of the group.

Trying to use this but it is all grayed out.

[Deleted]

Thanks for clearing this out, was this introduced recently?

[Senen]

They put in a mechanism to reduce your resources at the beginning of a raid encounter to certain values. Before that you could swap between cat and bear form as a moonkin to build your astral power up to 100, don't ask why that works but it did. Right now this only brings very limited benefits. This might be another step in trying to reduce pre pull shenanigans like using old set bonuses in the past.

Thank god for that. It takes minutes as a DH to build 100/100 Pain before pull.

[Leih]

Kind of sad to hear Revenge is looking like it may not be worth using on single target. Does this change in any way at 110 with artifact progression at any point?

[Deleted]

@Tizock: no more than 10 days ago. Unsure when exactly.
@Senen: And sadly no AMS pre-soak anymore.

[Hostile]

Trying to use this but it is all grayed out.

I have no idea what that means mate. Be more specific. Just PM me so we don't spam in here.

[Marrilaife]

Thanks for clearing this out, was this introduced recently?

Yes, somewhere in last 2 weeks due to DKs and Shadow priests trying to pool full runic power / insanity before pull, apparently Blizzard decided not every resource is energy / focus / mana to start fight with a full bar.

[Marok]

Kind of sad to hear Revenge is looking like it may not be worth using on single target. Does this change in any way at 110 with artifact progression at any point?

No, artifact or not, Revenge isn't worth using single target (unless it's 1 or 2 GCDs before Shield Slam comes off CD. Still need to do testing on that ).

I need to clarify though that the gain from prioritizing Devastate over Revenge is very small. If you're a player that doesn't really care about min/maxing as much as you can, then you'll be perfectly fine using Revenge normally.

[Shieldarm]

No, artifact or not, Revenge isn't worth using single target (unless it's 1 or 2 GCDs before Shield Slam comes off CD. Still need to do testing on that ).

I need to clarify though that the gain from prioritizing Devastate over Revenge is very small. If you're a player that doesn't really care about min/maxing as much as you can, then you'll be perfectly fine using Revenge normally.

Something that might be worth noting... What about Revenge resets? I know that Revenge on its own isn't that great, but if the boss is hitting you, every time he hits you there's a chance for Revenge to be reset. So instead of gaining 5 rage between Shield Slams, you can gain 10, 15, 20 rage between them, plus its stronger damage compared to Dev (not SS), with some lucky resets. Is it possible to sim the chance of a reset in line with you being hit to generate those resets? Obviously lending itself well to bosses that attack faster (ignoring add fights, where it was already stated that even against 2 enemies).

[Hostile]

Something that might be worth noting... What about Revenge resets? I know that Revenge on its own isn't that great, but if the boss is hitting you, every time he hits you there's a chance for Revenge to be reset. So instead of gaining 5 rage between Shield Slams, you can gain 10, 15, 20 rage between them, plus its stronger damage compared to Dev (not SS), with some lucky resets. Is it possible to sim the chance of a reset in line with you being hit to generate those resets? Obviously lending itself well to bosses that attack faster (ignoring add fights, where it was already stated that even against 2 enemies).

In WoD you could get crazy amounts of parry and always get those Revenge procs. Now though, they made it so it has internal cooldown of 3 seconds between procs of Revenge, so you can't spam it like before.

[Deleted]

Also the amount of times you can perform an action doesn't change its value compared to another one. The point of using Devastate over Revenge is, that with the chance of resetting Shield Slam it yields more damage and rage on average. The only point where resets could be interesting, would be between the last 2 gcd's before Shield Slam comes up anyway, because then you could use 2 Revenges. That is kind of a gamble though and you would need to track the reset icd. On single target I would just use Revenge on the gcd before Shield Slam comes back up.

[Alaexaender]

Also the amount of times you can perform an action doesn't change its value compared to another one. The point of using Devastate over Revenge is, that with the chance of resetting Shield Slam it yields more damage and rage on average. The only point where resets could be interesting, would be between the last 2 gcd's before Shield Slam comes up anyway, because then you could use 2 Revenges. That is kind of a gamble though and you would need to track the reset icd. On single target I would just use Revenge on the gcd before Shield Slam comes back up.

Revenge resets do increase it's value, as the actual rage gain from it is greater than 5, if you would use revenge before it came off cooldown normally. However, I'm fairly sure that 1) it's value would not increase enough to make it better than devastate in most cases, and 2) learning exactly when it's better to use revenge vs using devastate to make use of this would likely be insanely complicated (as it would depend on how likely the proc is, CD until SS, and how likely you are to use revenge as soon as it procs, etc).

[Senen]

Also the amount of times you can perform an action doesn't change its value compared to another one.

Ok no, that statement is false. The amount of times you can perform an action does change its value compared to another one. That's an important thing to keep in mind while doing TC.
That doesn't mean Rev would be better than Dev if it proc'd a lot (or even if it had no cooldown) but it might.