Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Tehr]

Just posted on the battle.net forum, but because I spend most of my time looking at this forum, I'm going to post over here, as well.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748575652

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41915914

I've gotten some feedback on some of the other places I've posted this, and I wanted to come back and address it here, too (everything's paraphrased by me):

Blood Boil being strong is necessary for our AoE threat, and even more so with your suggested change to reduce the number of targets hit by Heart Strike.

I agree that Blood should not struggle with AoE threat, but I don't agree that we should rely so heavily on JUST Blood Boil. With my suggested change, while you would lose some of the threat generation you had per cast of Blood Boil and Heart Strike, you should be able to spend more runes on Heart Strike, thus counteracting any lost threat. Additionally, I believe that Blood burst AoE damage is out of line and needs to be nerfed, and the main contributor to that is Blood Boil.

You shouldn't worry about using offensive abilities (like Heart Strike) during periods of high incoming damage.

This change is more focused on making Bone Shield easier to keep up - but still mandatory - so that the annoying "spam this button" routine that we've undergone when Blood Boil (and now Marrowrend) was our filler ability can fully die. This change seeks to use the interesting and involving DnD-Cleave mechanic on a core defensive ability so that we can get rid of the anti-synergy Catch-22 of having Heart Strike be the primary AoE rune ability in our kit. Additionally, since Heart Strike generates more Runic Power, using Heart Strike during periods of high incoming damage allows you to use more Death Strikes, which has synergy with the high incoming damage because its heal scales off damage taken.

This change would be an unnecessary nerf to Heartbreaker (Talent 1,2) because you would be losing 2 potential targets to gain bonus RP from.

Yes, this would reduce the effectiveness of Heartbreaker per use of Heart Strike, but that nerf is counter-acted by the fact that you would also be able to use more Heart Strikes than before (as you would be committing fewer runes to Marrowrend usage), thus netting no significant change to Heartbreaker's effectiveness. As an added bonus, however, this change would also make talents like Spectral Deflection and Tombstone more viable since you would have an increased rate of Bone Shield generation (with poor Bone Shield generation being the main drawback to those two talents).

I would much rather have BB damage transferred to HS. I want HS and MR to hit really hard. BB is meant to add a bit of aoe aggro, and to apply BP, while also acting as a filler. Our main source of damage and threat should be from HS and MR. Would make gameplay more compelling by having to managed BS stacks and doing heavy AOE damage via HS.

That's my opinion anyway.

Well lucky for you I have a suggestion that accomplishes something similar :P

[Invrlose]

Man you really are an idiot and still don't understand the point we're trying to get across. This discussion would be much better without you here.

Thanks for slinging an ad hominem at me. I understand perfectly the point you're trying to get across. You guys think that heartstrike should be a main contributor to AOE damage, and I've explained why that's stupid. Blizzard wants you to spend your runes on defensives, not threat. You get an amazing ability called blood boil for AOE threat. Blizzard has stated before they don't want us to actively think about threat since like TBC or LK so I'm not sure why all of a sudden this is an issue. You just either don't understand the way the game works now, or you're not a good tank. I don't know.

[Toxicant]

Thanks for slinging an ad hominem at me. I understand perfectly the point you're trying to get across. You guys think that heartstrike should be a main contributor to AOE damage, and I've explained why that's stupid. Blizzard wants you to spend your runes on defensives, not threat. You get an amazing ability called blood boil for AOE threat. Blizzard has stated before they don't want us to actively think about threat since like TBC or LK so I'm not sure why all of a sudden this is an issue. You just either don't understand the way the game works now, or you're not a good tank. I don't know.

Not sure why you're all over what two people said about threat when that's not the initial point we were trying to get across. So you clearly still (not sure how) don't know what we are talking about. Before commenting and joining in on the discussion please read posts and think clearly beforehand.

[Invrlose]

Not sure why you're all over what two people said about threat when that's not the initial point we were trying to get across. So you clearly still (not sure how) don't know what we are talking about. Before commenting and joining in on the discussion please read posts and think clearly beforehand.

I know exactly what you're talking about, but since you seem convinced that I don't, why don't you sum it up in one nice little neat post. Because from what I'm reading, you guys are crying about a non-issue. You think that heart strike is weaker than it should be when it's just a filler for when you have nothing else to hit, or an RP generator on weak mobs.

[Philondra]

You guys are just talking circles around each other.

The majority of you think Heart Strike is feels like a terrible button to press now that it's been nerfed.
Invrlose thinks that Heart Strike is a filler ability.

Personally, I think you're all missing the point. Heart Strike on its own doesn't feel very impactful on a single target, true, but the point is that it's main purpose isn't to do damage. You get 18 RP/rune for Heart Strike vs. 10 RP/rune for Marrowrend, so every time you're able to replace one Marrowrend with two Heart Strikes you get 2/5 of a Death Strike--assuming a standard talent setup of Heartbreaker/Ossuary.

With this nerf, Blizzard has made it clear that on a single target, Heart Strike is not intended to be a damaging ability. It's intended to be a resource generator. So those of you who think the spell is pointless now: it's not. You still want to be able to press as many Heart Strikes as possible. Those of you who think Heart Strike is "filler" or "an RP generator on weak mobs": it's not. Even against strong mobs you still want to be able to cast it as much as possible.

[Toxicant]

You guys are just talking circles around each other.

The majority of you think Heart Strike is feels like a terrible button to press now that it's been nerfed.
Invrlose thinks that Heart Strike is a filler ability.

Personally, I think you're all missing the point. Heart Strike on its own doesn't feel very impactful on a single target, true, but the point is that it's main purpose isn't to do damage. You get 18 RP/rune for Heart Strike vs. 10 RP/rune for Marrowrend, so every time you're able to replace one Marrowrend with two Heart Strikes you get 2/5 of a Death Strike--assuming a standard talent setup of Heartbreaker/Ossuary.

With this nerf, Blizzard has made it clear that on a single target, Heart Strike is not intended to be a damaging ability. It's intended to be a resource generator. So those of you who think the spell is pointless now: it's not. You still want to be able to press as many Heart Strikes as possible. Those of you who think Heart Strike is "filler" or "an RP generator on weak mobs": it's not. Even against strong mobs you still want to be able to cast it as much as possible.

Never said it was terrible, just don't agree with the nerf because of the reasons you listed.

[Milocow]

so how much weapon damage % does HS do now actually?

edit :
guides from wowhead : Mastery: Mastery increases the shield percentage on your Death Strike. This increases the value greatly on lower-value Death Strikes, but its power decreases as you're able to Death Strike for higher amounts.

tooltip : Mastery: Blood Shield
Requires Death Knight (Blood)
Requires level 78
Each time you heal yourself with Death Strike, you gain 12% of the base amount healed as a Physical damage absorption shield.


base amount = the 10% minimum health heal amount?
so if the 20% of all damage taken in the last 5 sec is larger than 10% max health, blood shield is still calculated as if only healed 10% of max health?

[Philondra]

so how much weapon damage % does HS do now actually?

180%. Two Heart Strikes is now 360%, whereas one Marrowmend is 350%.

[Deleted]

@Garalon: If you are right, then mastery will be absolutely trash. Right now I hope that base amount just means that it won't double dip from increased healing taken mechanics like vamp blood.

Example: You have 100 HP, 20% mastery and take 100 damage in 5 seconds while being healed externally for 50. You DS and you end up with 70 HP and a Shield worth 4 HP (2 HP if Garalon is right).

If instead of just Death Striking we use vamp blood and death strike after we heal for 1.3*0.2*100 = 26, where the base amount is 20. This applies a shield of 20*0.2*1.3 = 5 HP. If it was based on the heal you would get 26*0.2*1.3 = 7 HP

[Milocow]

@Garalon: If you are right, then mastery will be absolutely trash. Right now I hope that base amount just means that it won't double dip from increased healing taken mechanics like vamp blood.

Example: You have 100 HP, 20% mastery and take 100 damage in 5 seconds while being healed externally for 50. You DS and you end up with 70 HP and a Shield worth 4 HP (2 HP if Garalon is right).

If instead of just Death Striking we use vamp blood and death strike after we heal for 1.3*0.2*100 = 26, where the base amount is 20. This applies a shield of 20*0.2*1.3 = 5 HP. If it was based on the heal you would get 26*0.2*1.3 = 7 HP

yeah i know vamp blood doesn't benefit blood shield.
just wondering the "base" refers to that (excluding healing boosts) or the fact that it will always be calculated based on the minimum 10% health heal

[Deleted]

Ok, so I tested it now. On live a Death Strike while having taken 0 damage overheals me for 83k and puts up a 37k blood shield at 45% mastery (don't ask). If I let the Raider's training dummy hit me to pulp I can get a bigger Deathstrike that puts up a 43k blood shield. Also I get about 30% bigger shields during vamp blood.

[Hashcrypt]

I feel really weak in pvp as blood. My damage is low, I don't feel tanky at all, and the heals just aren't there.

I'm allowing for some lack of experience as part of the cause, but I really feel like Blizz went too far with the blood pvp nerfs.

About the only thing I feel adequate at is a chain snare machine. Between HS and slowing dnd I can keep people locked down pretty easily.

Maybe artifact and pvp talents will help.

[Raiju]

At level 100 a blood dk in pvp is basically just an annoyance, yes. If you're holding somewhere important in BG's you can do a good job but you aren't really... useful past that.

[Hashcrypt]

At level 100 a blood dk in pvp is basically just an annoyance, yes. If you're holding somewhere important in BG's you can do a good job but you aren't really... useful past that.

Yea, annoyance is the best way to describe blood in pvp for sure.

On a more positive note, finally got a chance to do some mythics...and wow that's all I can say. I've never felt more comfortable and in control as I did tonight. My pally and war pale in comparison.

And I was doing some pretty crazy dps, especially on aoe.

So yea...def found my PvE home for legion.

[Invrlose]

Yea, annoyance is the best way to describe blood in pvp for sure.

On a more positive note, finally got a chance to do some mythics...and wow that's all I can say. I've never felt more comfortable and in control as I did tonight. My pally and war pale in comparison.

And I was doing some pretty crazy dps, especially on aoe.

So yea...def found my PvE home for legion.

Im still not sure if I'll be playing blood DK or prot warr as my tank in legion.

[redfella]

Prot is undeniably strong, but there is 0 decision making in the play. Do I have rage? Ignore pain. They could rename the rage to ignore bar.

[s71rl2]

I feel like a complete jerk for asking as I'm sure it's answered somewhere but I can't find it on here - I was watching some streams and some bosses have an "active mitigation check" on an ability (EG: Dargrul the Underking in Neltharions Lair) - I was thinking about Warrior - Easy I know what to do, Paladin - Same, Druid - pfft got that, Monk - Drink more! but I can't work out what it will be on DK? I'm under the assumption that Death Strike is Re-active so that would be after you fail the active mitigation check? Or is Bone Shield considered active mitigation for these checks?

Thanks guys.

[Khrux]

Death Strike has a hidden buff that acts as our active mitigation, basically a "recently deathstriked" buff. I believe in Legion they also added this to Marrowrend also so we should always have one resource(runes or RP) to get through active mitigation checks.

[s71rl2]

Death Strike has a hidden buff that acts as our active mitigation, basically a "recently deathstriked" buff. I believe in Legion they also added this to Marrowrend also so we should always have one resource(runes or RP) to get through active mitigation checks.

Thank you Khrux, that makes me feel better So the recently deathstriked buff is something that we could create a weak aura for to track?

[Khrux]

There was some discussion about this a few pages back iirc, I think others noted that the hidden "recently deathstriked" was now missing on legion while others said they were only seeing it in raid zones now. I haven't specifically tested this myself so I don't know more I'm afraid.