Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf...

[Khrux]

I think anyone playing Unholy(and I'm one of you) should be clenching their butt for more nerfs, I personally prefer unholy's playstyle but have no problem playing Frost if needs be so I'm patiently waiting for the last minute move by Blizzard. I don't see frost being buffed this side of tier1 legion, but I do see unholy being nerfed because its flying too close to the sun at the moment and that kind of flight is reserved for rogues/mages.

[Nemesquish]

I skipped WoD. If it was as bad as you say I would have gone Unholy anyway.

And it isn't about a good frost dk beating a sub par unholy dk. I'm not competing with other player, I'm competing with myself. I can learn an entirely new class in roughly 4-5 hours of practice. That's easy. A new spec for a class I already play takes me like an hour tops. I already know the class mechanics. I already know how to play this new unholy and I'm doing 8-10k more dps on live with it than I am with frost at the moment. If that's the case, then why would I play frost and gimp myself?

Yea, theres really no reason to play Frost at this very moment in the pre-patch.

I'm one of the largest advocates for Frost and evenI have been raiding as Unholy the last 2 weeks or so...Bursting 500-600k vs frost's 200k is a noticeable difference in overall raid damage. But In Prepatch the difference is tiny, and depending on the fight, Frost will win out a few times.

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yes. big raid guilds like Method/Serenity already said that they are NOT taking any warlocks with them in mythic raid for LEGION

they are sub-tier now.

When we did raid testing with the Legendaries, Warlocks were topping meters on most fights...I really doubt World 1st guilds will avoid them.

[Deleted]

When we did raid testing with the Legendaries, Warlocks were topping meters on most fights...I really doubt World 1st guilds will avoid them.

the best guild in the world already said they are not taking any warlocks into mythic raiding. 20 slots. Not a single warlock.

[Dracovian]

but I do see unholy being nerfed because its flying too close to the sun at the moment and that kind of flight is reserved for rogues/mages.

What? Unholy has nothing on Assassination or Subtlety. Not even close. And let's not even bring up Fire Mage. The most overpowered spec I have seen since Warlocks in SoO. It's so much better than any other DPS spec that I can't comprehend how a day goes by without any hotfixes by Blizzard to bring it in line. There is absolutely no reason to play Arcane/Frost.

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the best guild in the world already said they are not taking any warlocks into mythic raiding. 20 slots. Not a single warlock.

Where can I look up Method's line-up?

[Deleted]

What? Unholy has nothing on Assassination or Subtlety. Not even close. And let's not even bring up Fire Mage. The most overpowered spec I have seen since Warlocks in SoO. It's so much better than any other DPS spec that I can't comprehend how a day goes by without any hotfixes by Blizzard to bring it in line. There is absolutely no reason to play Arcane/Frost.

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Where can I look up Method's line-up?

I think they said that on a twich stream. you have to look it up for yourself. sorry bro it would be too much to do. Furty or Deepshade or someone like that

[Hoeth]

And let's not even bring up Fire Mage. The most overpowered spec I have seen since Warlocks in SoO. It's so much better than any other DPS spec that I can't comprehend how a day goes by without any hotfixes by Blizzard to bring it in line.

I can comprehend why it hasn't been nerfed;


M-A-G-E

[Dracovian]

I can comprehend why it hasn't been nerfed;


M-A-G-E

Fair enough. One does not mess with the eternal golden child.

[Hoeth]

Fair enough. One does not mess with the eternal golden child.

This is hilarious...

"If Fire is way too good, rather than bringing them down to a point where they are tied with or worse than Frost and Arcane, they will take them to slightly too good still."

[Dracovian]

This is hilarious...

"If Fire is way too good, rather than bringing them down to a point where they are tied with or worse than Frost and Arcane, they will take them to slightly too good still."

I can't believe it's gotten to the point they don't even hide it anymore.

[Khrux]

That comment was about Fire being too good relative to other mage specs, so they won't gut the strongest spec in one class and force everyone to swap to a spec they have no investment in(secondary stats/artifact progress).

The fact mages are top as usual isn't anything new nor did they confirm that here, however it does mean they are unlikely to suddenly gut unholy and buff frost so that they swap places as #1 and #2 and for this I'm glad. If say unholy is 5% ahead of frost then this line of thought by the devs means they should be moving unholy to be 1% ahead instead of swapping to frost being 5% ahead and creating a complete flip flop of what is played.
We've seen this in the past where the specs everyone plays changes completely based on a single patch/hotfix and that can't be how they handle legion with the additional investment required per spec via artifacts. Its a shit situation for those playing Frost DK or whatever mage/rogue/lock/shaman/druid dps spec is #2/#3 going into legion because it likely means it'll be staying #2/#3 for the rest of the expansion and you can only hope for the gap to be closed over time but never take over.


Of course this was just some Dev interview with a player/youtuber/streamer and could be completely disregarded in the first patch after launch :P

[Dracovian]

That comment was about Fire being too good relative to other mage specs, so they won't gut the strongest spec in one class and force everyone to swap to a spec they have no investment in(secondary stats/artifact progress).

I saw the video and you are looking at it the wrong way. You make it sound like a benefit to players when in reality they are rewarding picking what's strong instead of what people prefer because of this statement. We read the forums, reddit and discord but what about the players who don't and just keep hearing "it's just beta, they will all even out"? They are gonna be screwed when they hit 110 and the best spec stays as the best.

The fact mages are top as usual isn't anything new nor did they confirm that here, however it does mean they are unlikely to suddenly gut unholy and buff frost so that they swap places as #1 and #2 and for this I'm glad. If say unholy is 5% ahead of frost then this line of thought by the devs means they should be moving unholy to be 1% ahead instead of swapping to frost being 5% ahead and creating a complete flip flop of what is played.

I don't see how this is something to be glad about. This means Legion will be the stalest expansion to date because once each spec's position is determined it is staying the same until the end of time because they decided not to mess with spec rankings.

We've seen this in the past where the specs everyone plays changes completely based on a single patch/hotfix and that can't be how they handle legion with the additional investment required per spec via artifacts. Its a shit situation for those playing Frost DK or whatever mage/rogue/lock/shaman/druid dps spec is #2/#3 going into legion because it likely means it'll be staying #2/#3 for the rest of the expansion and you can only hope for the gap to be closed over time but never take over.


Of course this was just some Dev interview with a player/youtuber/streamer and could be completely disregarded in the first patch after launch :P

Yeah it's a horrible situation for every ranged dps not Fire and every melee not Assassination Rogue. Assuming equal skill players will never surpass those two in meters. I lost a lot of my excitement. I'm forced to choose between Fire and Assassination.

[Khrux]

Your not forced to play Fire and Assassination at all, there has always and will always be a numerically stronger spec but that doesn't mean the entire population of the game plays that class just like mage and rogue won't be the most played class in legion.

I'll be playing DK regardless of what mages/rogues are doing and there will be fights where I can be #1 if played perfectly and there will be fights where I can't be #1 even if played perfectly and that is fine because nobody should be entitled to that #1 spot 100% of the time. Even if every class was numerically identical you will still have someone at the top of the meters due to multiple variables such as RNG, uptime, activity, rotational accuracy, lag, gear and so on. Not to mention "weaker" classes will still be used for their utility.

Too many players are obsessed with whatever the forums say is the best when it makes no difference to them personally what so ever. Look at any class forum and you find threads asking "is this class strong for legion" or "will this spec be good in X content" because everyone is trying to find the most OP class. I played WW monk all through WoD and I've pulled a 99th percentile and an 85th percentile on the same fight just through the above variables which can swing me from being #1 to #5 from one day to the next. Everyone should play what you enjoy and what you are good at instead of worrying what everyone else is doing.

Frost will top meters at various points throughout the expansion because despite popular beliefs its really close to unholy, but if they get Frost to within 5%(Their intention for all specs) of unholy then thats as good a balance as I would expect. As mentioned above, a 5% difference is smaller than what you yourself can create just through the many variables of using a spec in a real world scenario.

[whyabadi]

Thank you, khrux. One of the best posts I have read in a while.

[Dracovian]

Your not forced to play Fire and Assassination at all, there has always and will always be a numerically stronger spec but that doesn't mean the entire population of the game plays that class just like mage and rogue won't be the most played class in legion.

If you want to be the best you can you must play the superior spec simply because they have the highest ceiling. If you don't care about that then sure, play whatever.

I'll be playing DK regardless of what mages/rogues are doing and there will be fights where I can be #1 if played perfectly and there will be fights where I can't be #1 even if played perfectly and that is fine because nobody should be entitled to that #1 spot 100% of the time. Even if every class was numerically identical you will still have someone at the top of the meters due to multiple variables such as RNG, uptime, activity, rotational accuracy, lag, gear and so on. Not to mention "weaker" classes will still be used for their utility.

If the mages/rogues in your group have equal or superior skill to you, no you won't be #1. Their ceiling is higher period. Like I've mentioned over and over throughout the thread, all these comparison must always assume equal player skill in which case the superior spec will win flat out.

Too many players are obsessed with whatever the forums say is the best when it makes no difference to them personally what so ever. Look at any class forum and you find threads asking "is this class strong for legion" or "will this spec be good in X content" because everyone is trying to find the most OP class. I played WW monk all through WoD and I've pulled a 99th percentile and an 85th percentile on the same fight just through the above variables which can swing me from being #1 to #5 from one day to the next. Everyone should play what you enjoy and what you are good at instead of worrying what everyone else is doing.

Wanting to play the class with the highest ceiling is not being obsessed. It's being competitive and caring about performance. Again, if you and your friends don't care about that then that's great. Enjoy Heroic and below, but don't act like people who do care to be the best they can are in the wrong.

Frost will top meters at various points throughout the expansion because despite popular beliefs its really close to unholy, but if they get Frost to within 5%(Their intention for all specs) of unholy then thats as good a balance as I would expect. As mentioned above, a 5% difference is smaller than what you yourself can create just through the many variables of using a spec in a real world scenario.

Frost is way below 5% from Unholy. If you think its 5% or less you are kidding yourself and fooling others. If you and/or others reading this thread want to play Frost you absolutely can and probably should because if you cared about being the best you could you wouldn't even consider it to begin with.

[Deleted]

If you want to be the best you can you must play the superior spec simply because they have the highest ceiling. If you don't care about that then sure, play whatever.


If the mages/rogues in your group have equal or superior skill to you, no you won't be #1. Their ceiling is higher period. Like I've mentioned over and over throughout the thread, all these comparison must always assume equal player skill in which case the superior spec will win flat out.


Wanting to play the class with the highest ceiling is not being obsessed. It's being competitive and caring about performance. Again, if you and your friends don't care about that then that's great. Enjoy Heroic and below, but don't act like people who do care to be the best they can are in the wrong.


Frost is way below 5% from Unholy. If you think its 5% or less you are kidding yourself and fooling others. If you and/or others reading this thread want to play Frost you absolutely can and probably should because if you cared about being the best you could you wouldn't even consider it to begin with.

first each spec has different strengths and weakneses , if someone doesnt enjoy a certain or hates it theyre not gonna do well with it all (most of time atleast).

dks cleave and aoe and ST burst is strong. certainly will be fights where dks are above rogues/Mages or can be above with same ilvl and skill. And dk has more utlity then mage which just bring dmg.

Even if you dont play the spec thats 5% ahead doesnt mean you dont care about performance or arent competitive, like say pushing best they can with a worse spec.

Ok frost is now way more then 5% behind unholy but thats cause ring and DA mainly, at 110 theyre lot more close, and frost is actully better then unholy on sustained cleave.

Also generly is more better to bring player that has good percentiles and is Always prepared etc. but plays say lock id take him/her over a average mage, unless really needs mahe or just having a mage no matter gear makes it lot more easy, like massgrups were for manno/xhul.

[Dracovian]

first each spec has different strengths and weakneses , if someone doesnt enjoy a certain or hates it theyre not gonna do well with it all (most of time atleast).

Players who care about progressions play specs they don't enjoy all the time and there's nothing wrong with that if being the absolute best they can means more than loving their spec.

dks cleave and aoe and ST burst is strong. certainly will be fights where dks are above rogues/Mages or can be above with same ilvl and skill. And dk has more utlity then mage which just bring dmg.

What you think is "strong" is not necessarily what progression guilds consider strong. Unholy is performing very well. Frost is not. Everything you mention Frost are weak except for cleave which they can do well if the gods smile on you with procs which leads to inconsistency. Mages, Fire specifically is the best dps class in the game. That's much more beneficial than any trivial utility. DK's utility repertoire consists of 1 grip for Frost and 2 For Unholy. That's it.

Even if you dont play the spec thats 5% ahead doesnt mean you dont care about performance or arent competitive, like say pushing best they can with a worse spec.

If you care about performing as well as you possibly can, and getting the kill is your priority you will play the superior spec. Otherwise, getting the kill is not #1 for you and that's totally fine but those of us who do care to reach the highest ceiling we can are perfectly in our right to.

Ok frost is now way more then 5% behind unholy but thats cause ring and DA mainly, at 110 theyre lot more close, and frost is actully better then unholy on sustained cleave.

Every discussion in this thread, at least for me, has been based on 110 with artifact weapon from beta players and currently in the beta the gap between Frost and Unholy is even wider the higher the level and the deeper you go into each artifact.

Also generly is more better to bring player that has good percentiles and is Always prepared etc. but plays say lock id take him/her over a average mage, unless really needs mahe or just having a mage no matter gear makes it lot more easy, like massgrups were for manno/xhul.

What you are describing is a Heroic and below player. I already said that was perfectly fine. You don't have to be as competitive as those of us who care about progression. Just invite your buddies to run some normals and have fun! You don't have to agree with the competitive mentality some of us have and that's okay.

[0verdose]

i gotta agree with everything youre saying draco.

[Zaane]

edited for meh

[Deleted]

Players who care about progressions play specs they don't enjoy all the time and there's nothing wrong with that if being the absolute best they can means more than loving their spec.


What you think is "strong" is not necessarily what progression guilds consider strong. Unholy is performing very well. Frost is not. Everything you mention Frost are weak except for cleave which they can do well if the gods smile on you with procs which leads to inconsistency. Mages, Fire specifically is the best dps class in the game. That's much more beneficial than any trivial utility. DK's utility repertoire consists of 1 grip for Frost and 2 For Unholy. That's it.


If you care about performing as well as you possibly can, and getting the kill is your priority you will play the superior spec. Otherwise, getting the kill is not #1 for you and that's totally fine but those of us who do care to reach the highest ceiling we can are perfectly in our right to.


Every discussion in this thread, at least for me, has been based on 110 with artifact weapon from beta players and currently in the beta the gap between Frost and Unholy is even wider the higher the level and the deeper you go into each artifact.


What you are describing is a Heroic and below player. I already said that was perfectly fine. You don't have to be as competitive as those of us who care about progression. Just invite your buddies to run some normals and have fun! You don't have to agree with the competitive mentality some of us have and that's okay.

i agree with most you say, but non mythic people who dont play best spec can also care about performance like getting best possible numbers out of that spec. dk utlity is chains of ice a very good slow, double grip for unholy, corpseshield for UH, a ranged stun and posisble CS for being able to dmg more from rnaged then other mele spec, and on some fights utility is better then stait up dps. f
ire may be best dps spec , but can change that later other classes will beat it. and For burst aoe uh is better then fire, 3times epidemic, dnd/Defile + SS cleave.beats DB or Flamestrike. and for spread aoe aslong dot is on the mobs unholy is best of all with 100yard range of epidemic.

[Deleted]

What you are describing is a Heroic and below player. I already said that was perfectly fine. You don't have to be as competitive as those of us who care about progression. Just invite your buddies to run some normals and have fun! You don't have to agree with the competitive mentality some of us have and that's okay.

You got it wrong. What you are describing is a player in a top 100 guild. Everyone else will most likely progress just fine (in Heroic and above) with the class and spec they choose.