Grom Hellscream in Legion

[Deleted]

I hope Gromm returns with unmatched power and kill all legion bullshits including oneshot this twat Gul'dan!!

Can this guy be banned already? 3rd topic he necro'd.

[Mehrunes]

Hello, orcs are not the only races in Draenor you know. Government doesn't work worldwide.

Just saying.

And? War crimes are primarily an element of international law.

[karumayu]

The concept of War crime in the universe of Warcraft is a tough one. You cannot easily take the international laws of ours and apply to it. Purposefully killing civilian targets can be considered as a war crime, but in a society of Orcs and in some clans, where every single member is considered a warrior upon reaching adolescence it becomes arguably harder to define civilians. When said clan invade and pillage adjacent community, do they even operate knowing the concept of civilians or would they even consider killing everyone there as dis-honorable?

In the case of Grom, those who are able to decide if he is to be trialed as war criminal or not are the victors - Frostwolf Clan and The Draenei. Persoanlly I would have loved to see some consequence for his actions against both the worlds. Seeing the ending cinematic for WoD it looks like everything he had done is conveniently forgotten. So I hope we do not see him in legion as that would only remind players whom have the same opinion as me of the horrible ending of WoD.

[JustRob]

The Shadowmoon Clan attack on Embaari Village. The Iron Horde assault on Karabor (where in the main universe the Orcish Horde slaughtered hundreds of defenseless Draenei). If you take just one second to use that brain of yours, imagine what you could accomplish!

I don't think you can really count Ner'zhul's actions as Grom's responsibility, he was acting largely on his own without orders of Grom. All Grom told him was "be useful to me". And stop dragging the main universe into this, it has nothing to do with AU Grom. There were no children in AU Karabor. Velen saw what was gonna happen before it happened, they had more than enough time to evacuate those who couldn't fight.

I agree the things Grom did are ugly. But he was out for conquest, and you don't conquer a world by not killing people.

[Zulkhan]

"Oh yeah, this Grom guy just killed my family and half of my race. But let's just ignore his actions because we're living in a "#savage world", right? Things like that aaalways happen..."

Again, as he said, if you have a problem with him then pick an axe and bash it on his skull. If you can't do just that, how can you hope to even conceive the idea to put the guy on trial? Last I checked to do the same exact thing with Garrosh 25 dudes needed to punch his face hard.

I don't think you can really count Ner'zhul's actions as Grom's responsibility, he was acting largely on his own without orders of Grom. All Grom told him was "be useful to me".

Yes and no. While Ner'zhul was clearly power-hungry by himself, all the things he did were also meant to please Grom's requests and expectations. And it's Grom's pressure and threat of potential annihilation that pushed Ner'zhul to dabble in the power of the Dark Star, the power that turned both him and his clan batshit insane. This makes Grom not only responsible of what the clan did as a whole but even of what they became and what they have lost in the process.

[My User Name]

Again, as he said, if you have a problem with him then pick an axe and bash it on his skull. If you can't do just that, how can you hope to even conceive the idea to put the guy on trial? Last I checked to do the same exact thing with Garrosh 25 dudes needed to punch his face hard.

Err... what trial are you talking about? Why should we put him on trial if his crimes are obvious? Do you need witnesses? Maybe ask MU Azerothians who participated the war or the AU Draenei people which half of their race got exterminated?

I'm talking about how fucking stupid Grom is able to walk free after all he did those things, and how Blizzard is making draenei ignore the fact that Iron Horde SLAUGHTERED their people.

Also -- "bash his head with an axe" -- ... what? We're in the lore forums, you know that right?

[JustRob]

Err... what trial are you talking about? Why should we put him on trial if his crimes are obvious? Do you need witnesses? Maybe ask MU Azerothians who participated the war or the AU Draenei people which half of their race got exterminated?

I'm talking about how fucking stupid Grom is able to walk free after all he did those things, and how Blizzard is making draenei ignore the fact that Iron Horde SLAUGHTERED their people.

Also -- "bash his head with an axe" -- ... what? We're in the lore forums, you know that right?

The draenei didn't lose half of their race in the AU. We acted pre-emptively and managed to save most of them and fight the Iron Horde back. I dunno which expansion you've been playing, but the Iron Horde suffered one crushing defeat after another. It was nowhere near the slaughter that happened on MU Draenor.

And once again, he didn't commit any crimes. He initiated war. I agree it's dumb that the draenei just forgave him for everything, but that's the way it is.

[Aucald]

The draenei didn't lose half of their race in the AU. We acted pre-emptively and managed to save most of them and fight the Iron Horde back. I dunno which expansion you've been playing, but the Iron Horde suffered one crushing defeat after another. It was nowhere near the slaughter that happened on MU Draenor.

And once again, he didn't commit any crimes. He initiated war. I agree it's dumb that the draenei just forgave him for everything, but that's the way it is.

I don't think the Draenei on AU Draenor have "forgiven" Grom anything, but he did fight with them against the greater Legion threat and so earned himself something of a reprieve. I've no doubt tensions will be high between the remaining Orcish clans and the Draenei, but it would be very unlike the Draenei to revenge themselves on the Orcs after they've already been decimated by first the Horde and Alliance then the Legion under Gul'dan's command. They likely consider the battle fought and won, and will maintain a watchful vigil over the remaining Iron Horde to ensure the peace lasts as long as it can.

[thilicen]

They devs say the forces of draenor will appear in some point in legion, maybe in the final patch of this expantion.

Quote or gtfo.

[OIS]

Err... what trial are you talking about? Why should we put him on trial if his crimes are obvious? Do you need witnesses? Maybe ask MU Azerothians who participated the war or the AU Draenei people which half of their race got exterminated?

I'm talking about how fucking stupid Grom is able to walk free after all he did those things, and how Blizzard is making draenei ignore the fact that Iron Horde SLAUGHTERED their people.

Also -- "bash his head with an axe" -- ... what? We're in the lore forums, you know that right?

I wish there was a way to delete War Crimes from history. So that we would avoid this meaningless discussion.

What do you know about the law system in Draenor? Do you know if there's an international law in Draenor? Do you know if there are laws in Draenor? Blizzard clearly didn't address these issues, other than Draenor being a #savage world and people fighting all the time to ensure their survival, be it against weather, animals, plants or other people. Beyond that anything you would add would solely stem from your headcanon.

And just for one moment, if we think about there actually is going to be a trial for Grommash, I doubt it would end the way you like it anyway. The last time someone was tried for war crimes the jury was rigged, the verdict was reached before the trial even began.

[RedNight at MMOC]

I don't think you can really count Ner'zhul's actions as Grom's responsibility,

Let me stop you right there. Remember what Grom told Ner'zhul? "Make a worthy offering to the Iron Horde. Join us or be crushed underneath us."

[deviantcultist]

No
More
Orcs
Please

Thank you

[lightofdawn]

Since Yrel told Khadgar to call upon them, when needed against the Legion, it's possible Grom will feature in Legion.

i'd like that. still feels like we're missing the change of heart from grom's story, but im kinda glad he wasnt an enemy the whole time

[Zulkhan]

Err... what trial are you talking about? Why should we put him on trial if his crimes are obvious?

Are you saying Garrosh's crimes were less obvious?

And if you would know something about trials, you would know that is not only about the commited acts but all the circumstances bringing to them as well, which ultimately determines the fitting punishment. That's why Garrosh was going to be punished whatever the case, exactly because his crimes were obvious, but either deciding between life imprisonment or capital execution.

Ofcourse, the point is that "war crimes" shouldn't even be a thing in Warcraft and they were brought up in the namesake novel because Blizzard needed any dumb excuse to let Garrosh live. Still, it was you who questioned a guy who was talking about this exact shit.

I'm talking about how fucking stupid Grom is able to walk free after all he did those things, and how Blizzard is making draenei ignore the fact that Iron Horde SLAUGHTERED their people.

They're not ignoring it, they just don't see the point of keep fighting after all that's transpired. People may not like that (and I don't blame them) but the overall idea ain't hard to understand.

Also -- "bash his head with an axe" -- ... what? We're in the lore forums, you know that right?

And this is supposed to mean? What exactly?

[Zuben]

i'd like that. still feels like we're missing the change of heart from grom's story, but im kinda glad he wasnt an enemy the whole time

A mid-expansion story patch would've done wonders to soften the switch. Without it Grom became our ally out of immediate necessity, since Gul'dan seized his forces to serve the Legion. Once we had dealt with that Grom facing the music would've been the obvious aftermath. Forgive & forget is just silly and reeks of 'let's just sweep this shit under the rug and focus on the next thing'.

Though I find AU-Grom such a charismatic character that I don't really mind. And yeah, I'd rather move on to Legion too.

[Sir Andy]

Should've dragged him back to Orgrimmar and fashioned him into a loyal Horde fighter.

[My User Name]

Tom Chilton recently said in an interview on Gamescom that they are done with the WoD timeline and the only character that they are bringing from there is AU Gul'dan.

So no Grom for you folks.

[Tenjen]

Grommash didn't commit any war crimes. Killing your enemies is not a war crime. Please don't spout bs if you don't know what it means

How about throwing civilians into a portal feeder that used their souls one by one? the first thing you saw coming into draenor was their screams on each end.

I myself was hoping for Yrel...after that promise.

[Zulkhan]

Tom Chilton recently said in an interview on Gamescom that they are done with the WoD timeline and the only character that they are bringing from there is AU Gul'dan.

So no Grom for you folks.

Source? I read a couple of interviews of his and he said nothing of the sort in those.

[My User Name]

Source? I read a couple of interviews of his and he said nothing of the sort in those.

Do you know Turkish? Eh, here is the sauce anyway.