Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Tiberria]

Yeah I was not arguing mastery was actually better, just that it rises and falls in value depending on what you are healing at that moment.

I am just getting a strong "screw it just go for ilvl" feeling going for gear considering the variability between content, and even within content. Socket choices will be huge though (their relative value is going up), so that is where I am wondering what to choose with such wide swings. Maybe a safe choice instead of mastery which seems to vary wildly, even if Mythic+ will be a big focus at times. IDK

Thinking haste is the safest and best bet for gems; plus, Resto Druid.

I mean, "screw it and go for ilvl" has been the right choice 99.9% of the time since the start of WoD anyway because secondary stats are not far enough apart to warrant taking an ilvl/INT decrease. It's still the same thing in 7.0 with the exception of mastery, which swings all over the place. In a 5 man, if you take Cultivation and either Spring Blossoms or Germination, you can fairly trivially have 3+ HoT effects on every party member whenever meaningful damage is going out. That would make mastery nearly double as strong as the other secondary stats. Meanwhile, in raids, with an SoTF build, it's not all that improbable that we are averaging <1 HoT effect per target that we are healing (when you factor in Tranq healing, etc.), which puts it 50%+ behind every other secondary (even Vers).

If we're going for top end Mythic+ levels/times, we're probably going to have to maintain a second highly mastery focused set. The differential in throughput between mastery and everything else in a 5 man is ridiculous enough that it could well be worth using lower ilvl to get higher mastery.

I also think it's highly questionable whether Haste is ahead of Crit right now (in a raid build). Haste not scaling Tranq at all is a much bigger detriment in Legion, since the amount of wasted/totally over the top overheal on raid CDs is reduced. Plus, a big part of Haste's value is being able to spam out more Rejuvs in a certain time frame. You can't afford that anywhere near as much in Legion. In particular, if taking Inner Peace, it's almost certainly Crit > Haste.

[theburned]

Even if you have "high random damage", if you're using a Cultivation build (which is highly probable in Mythic +), mastery is still automatically better. Why? If you have high random triage type damage on a single target, you're going to cast a Rejuv on that target, which will immediately apply Cultivation (they should be low enough hp% to proc it if it's really threatening damage). That immediately puts you at a minimum of 2.0 mastery effects on that target, which immediately makes mastery better than any other stat. It's not even about tank healing; if you also take Germination or decide to focus heal single targets with more than that single GCD, you are going to be easily doubling the healing added by mastery compared to what any other stat can add.

The only way other stats exceed mastery in 5 mans is if you decide to go with a SoTF build for some reason, or put a very high weighting on the DPS contribution.

SotF builds is not particularly popular in mythic+ (it works), same with ToL, biggest issue is that it doesnt allow for as much time in cat form. They both get the necessary healing done.
Cases like xavius on on 10 or higher with tyrannical, feed on the weak in particular dealing quite a bit more than a players hp, the healing from cultivation + rejuv tends to be far too slow, and using regrowths is far more likely to save someone because its large targetted damage several times so you can get living seed to proc aswell, so in the relevant timeframe I believe you can get off 2-3 regrowths before you got time to throw in a cultivation to bring him back up, ideally you would like to prehot them, but that is heavily dependant on your setup if you have 2-3 people with a decent defensive, sure, but we don't have enough so I dont expect a lot of others to have it.

I mean, "screw it and go for ilvl" has been the right choice 99.9% of the time since the start of WoD anyway because secondary stats are not far enough apart to warrant taking an ilvl/INT decrease. It's still the same thing in 7.0 with the exception of mastery, which swings all over the place. In a 5 man, if you take Cultivation and either Spring Blossoms or Germination, you can fairly trivially have 3+ HoT effects on every party member whenever meaningful damage is going out. That would make mastery nearly double as strong as the other secondary stats. Meanwhile, in raids, with an SoTF build, it's not all that improbable that we are averaging <1 HoT effect per target that we are healing (when you factor in Tranq healing, etc.), which puts it 50%+ behind every other secondary (even Vers).

If we're going for top end Mythic+ levels/times, we're probably going to have to maintain a second highly mastery focused set. The differential in throughput between mastery and everything else in a 5 man is ridiculous enough that it could well be worth using lower ilvl to get higher mastery.

I also think it's highly questionable whether Haste is ahead of Crit right now (in a raid build). Haste not scaling Tranq at all is a much bigger detriment in Legion, since the amount of wasted/totally over the top overheal on raid CDs is reduced. Plus, a big part of Haste's value is being able to spam out more Rejuvs in a certain time frame. You can't afford that anywhere near as much in Legion. In particular, if taking Inner Peace, it's almost certainly Crit > Haste.

Especially for top end mythic+ your damage becomes more and more important if you actually want to beat the timer, comes down to different dungeons and affixes.


Haste being our best is very questionable, in general equal percentages of haste/crit will always be a decent rule of thumb, I believe crit is slightly better, but even a 5-10% difference can easily change that in favor of haste.
In the end it all comes down to build, prosperity/sotf/inner peace definitely favours crit though.
Tank healing builds can easily boil down to mastery/crit=haste or mastery/haste>versatility >crit, very dependant on what you chose in t15 and t100.
cultivation promoting mastery, and so on.
Biggest issue with mastery is that you feel somewhat gutted if you happen to stack it and it isn't as effective, crit is always reliable, haste is fairly reliable aswell, but doesnt increase your tranq.

[Aleks0410]

I've not tried mythic +, can someone explain to me why SotF is considered a bad choise for these dungeons?

[theburned]

I've not tried mythic +, can someone explain to me why SotF is considered a bad choise for these dungeons?

the healing + mastery stack from cultivation is really strong, also the downside of tank healing relying on that regrowth to crit, boost to wg not as important, and things like cultivation feels a lot better if in cat form.

All this being said for healing it works perfectly fine, I've been playing around with all of these talents and they all work fine, ToL providing some safety against really dangerous packs, in exchange for not providing anything otherwise. I'd expect sotf to feel a lot better with 4p.

[Aleks0410]

The extra mastery stack I can definitely see. But the healing itself from Cultivation, I'd imagine being too slow for that sort of healing.

[theburned]

The extra mastery stack I can definitely see. But the healing itself from Cultivation, I'd imagine being too slow for that sort of healing.

Its basically just doubling rejuvs.

[Sprucelee]

I mean, "screw it and go for ilvl" has been the right choice 99.9% of the time since the start of WoD anyway because secondary stats are not far enough apart to warrant taking an ilvl/INT decrease. It's still the same thing in 7.0 with the exception of mastery, which swings all over the place. In a 5 man, if you take Cultivation and either Spring Blossoms or Germination, you can fairly trivially have 3+ HoT effects on every party member whenever meaningful damage is going out. That would make mastery nearly double as strong as the other secondary stats. Meanwhile, in raids, with an SoTF build, it's not all that improbable that we are averaging <1 HoT effect per target that we are healing (when you factor in Tranq healing, etc.), which puts it 50%+ behind every other secondary (even Vers).

If we're going for top end Mythic+ levels/times, we're probably going to have to maintain a second highly mastery focused set. The differential in throughput between mastery and everything else in a 5 man is ridiculous enough that it could well be worth using lower ilvl to get higher mastery.

I also think it's highly questionable whether Haste is ahead of Crit right now (in a raid build). Haste not scaling Tranq at all is a much bigger detriment in Legion, since the amount of wasted/totally over the top overheal on raid CDs is reduced. Plus, a big part of Haste's value is being able to spam out more Rejuvs in a certain time frame. You can't afford that anywhere near as much in Legion. In particular, if taking Inner Peace, it's almost certainly Crit > Haste.

But that is not what your previous post would imply

Yes - the optimal setup for Mythic + will likely be almost completely different from the raiding setup, including stat priority.

For raids, the most common setup (not saying there will be other builds viable/optimal on specific fights) will be Prosperity/Spring Blossoms/SoTF/Flourish. The stat priority will be Haste >= Crit > Vers > Mastery.

For 5 mans, the most frequently used setup is likely to be Cenarion Ward/Germination/Cultivation/Flourish or Stonebark. In a 5 man, and with that talent setup, the stat priority shifts to Mastery >> Haste >= Crit > Vers

Just saying your own posts would imply that Haste edges out Crit, and all stats, if one were to try and find "a middle ground" across PVE.

That was the point of my post, assuming that early expansion will make constantly swapping gems for mythic>raids too costly, then what exactly is the best (or better put, safest) stat to gem... We would all love to have two sets of gear, but I doubt that work considering sockets and that you will certainly have your "highest ilvl" set of gear... In particular I am thinking about how to handle sockets.

Even Crit, which seems safe between varied content, would start losing some value if you found you liked a talent liked Abundance (undoubtably an outlier). But crit may be one of the safest choices.... hmm

I am personally not certain yet what I will gem assuming re-gemming is not practical...

[Aleks0410]

Relative to WoD, how much stronger is SoTF compared to ToL?

Having a hard time mathing out the LvL 75 talents... I never liked SoTF but I guess I'll have to get used to it for raids.

Also, in terms of HPS, assuming the raid is below 60% "a lot", will Cultivation still never come close to SoTF?

[Keiyra]

I think early on Cultivation stands a great chance of being stronger than SOTF. Especially during progression as health bars inevitable go a lot lower as people are learning the fight mechanics. Honestly i think you can take any talent in that row and be fine at least at the start*

* Once we get 2 and 4pc of tier however, that's when the option of a prosperity/SOTF build becomes something to seriously consider over the other 2 talents.

[kaloryth]

theburned keeps mentioning cat form, so I assume the go to affinity is feral for DPS in mythic+? Does that mean we ignore moonfire/sunfire + wrath because of the mana cost on dots and just cat dps when we have openings?

[theburned]

theburned keeps mentioning cat form, so I assume the go to affinity is feral for DPS in mythic+? Does that mean we ignore moonfire/sunfire + wrath because of the mana cost on dots and just cat dps when we have openings?

It does not, moonfire and sunfire is an integral part of your toolkit dpsing with feral affinity, and there are times where going into melee is not a viable option,

Its not super important if you are just single targetting with 100% uptime on the boss, but whenever you have to run away from the boss etc. applying either hots to teammates or dots to the enemies is pretty important to spend your time efficiently. Otherwise you can mostly spend time while waiting for energy to apply hots/dots, though you will lose bleed ticks if you jump out of form.

Mana is ofc a limitation, so applying sunfire can often be a bit waste of mana, especially if you want to regen, but if you just need mana neutral it doesnt matter.

[Deleted]

There are basically 2 distinct builds/sets of talent choices to go with.

SoTF/WG build:
Prosperity - Soul of the Forest - Flourish
Stat priority - Haste > Crit > Vers > Mastery



Rejuv build:
Cenarion Ward - Incarnation - Spring Blossoms/Cultivation - Flourish
Stat priority - Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

Could you (or anyone, really) please provide actual values, including intellect? I know that some specs value secondaries more than main stat...

[Deleted]

Will theburned or Tib or anybody with extensive knowledge and testing post a Resto Druid guide Legion edition in the stickys with a summary of things we know, talent summary's, builds etc as this thread is very long now.

[Torty]

I'm super doubtful that Mastery is as good as Tiberia makes it out to be. I'm using the build he name "rejuv build" and RDSW addon was mining Mastery at below both Crit and Haste on majority of encounters, sometimes very close to Vers or even below it. The only fight Mastery was higher than other stats was on Tyrant when I used Cultivation, which is understandable and super cheesy.

I will personally follow the following priority: Crit>Haste>Mastery>Versatility. From the mining I did in full 3 weeks of 12 boss fights (excluded HFA) I got Int=SP=1, Crit=0,66, Haste(HPM)=0,61, Mastery=0,53, Vers=0,5.
From Council and Archi logs based on my own formulas and getting weights from there: Int=SP=1, Crit=0,65, Vers=0,63, Haste(HPM)=0,62, Haste(HPCT)=0,99. No mastery obviously, since I haven't figured out how to get it.

[Deleted]

mastery is the worst stat for higher mythic + because it does not boost your dps
get used to swap gearsets (mastery - dps) midrun depending on affixes

[stormgust]

I'm super doubtful that Mastery is as good as Tiberia makes it out to be. I'm using the build he name "rejuv build" and RDSW addon was mining Mastery at below both Crit and Haste on majority of encounters, sometimes very close to Vers or even below it. The only fight Mastery was higher than other stats was on Tyrant when I used Cultivation, which is understandable and super cheesy.

Thing is, it only really provides a second mastery stack to reju (-> other spells lower the average possible quite a bit) and the tank, and for reju not even on full uptime. It's really not good enough unless you can have it consistently trigger and forego most other spells (or stack onto them easily), but then the result is obvious like on velhari.

Anyway, I don't quite get why you guys make anything like rocket science out of statweights. Outside of mastery stacking, there's not much complexity involved, and a quick glance and stat conversion should show you how stats are likely going to perform (+- Tranquility). As for mastery, you should know what kind of healing your tank needs and be able to decide thereof (if it's secondary healing requirement, or emergency -> crit/haste are better, otherwise mastery).

As for Crit/Haste, I guess that's more going to be about preference than anything.

[Deleted]

Resto druids are pretty plain and simple imo no flavor

[ryklin]

Resto druids are pretty plain and simple imo no flavor

I mean with the holy priest and mistweaver reworks, that's basically where every healer is atm in terms of just pure raid healing (fortunately there aren't many fights where you actually are gonna be non-stop healing in no-spirit land, with the exception of new disc's fairly high skillcap), especially if you're bad at thinking about hpm, but the new mastery for droods adds a lot of optional depth despite that it'll likely be weak on your average high raid damage heal check fights and really great on other fights

[masterhorus8]

I'm super doubtful that Mastery is as good as Tiberia makes it out to be. I'm using the build he name "rejuv build" and RDSW addon was mining Mastery at below both Crit and Haste on majority of encounters, sometimes very close to Vers or even below it. The only fight Mastery was higher than other stats was on Tyrant when I used Cultivation, which is understandable and super cheesy.

I will personally follow the following priority: Crit>Haste>Mastery>Versatility. From the mining I did in full 3 weeks of 12 boss fights (excluded HFA) I got Int=SP=1, Crit=0,66, Haste(HPM)=0,61, Mastery=0,53, Vers=0,5.
From Council and Archi logs based on my own formulas and getting weights from there: Int=SP=1, Crit=0,65, Vers=0,63, Haste(HPM)=0,62, Haste(HPCT)=0,99. No mastery obviously, since I haven't figured out how to get it.

Just an fyi, that addon is scaled for 110, not 100. So anything you're doing that's not on beta with that addon in its current iteration (from last I checked) is meaningless in regards to finding stat weights. But regarding mastery, in dungeons, its stupidly powerful. If you're trying to argue against that (which was mostly what was being said), then I'm not sure you've been paying attention to much of anything. With RDSW, mastery was consistently above 2.0 in a dungeon, purely because it's so much easier to keep 2-3 hots on the entire group.

[Torty]

Thing is, it only really provides a second mastery stack to reju (-> other spells lower the average possible quite a bit) and the tank, and for reju not even on full uptime. It's really not good enough unless you can have it consistently trigger and forego most other spells (or stack onto them easily), but then the result is obvious like on velhari.

Anyway, I don't quite get why you guys make anything like rocket science out of statweights. Outside of mastery stacking, there's not much complexity involved, and a quick glance and stat conversion should show you how stats are likely going to perform (+- Tranquility). As for mastery, you should know what kind of healing your tank needs and be able to decide thereof (if it's secondary healing requirement, or emergency -> crit/haste are better, otherwise mastery).

Amazing insight. If you are not interested in more complex discussion then don't discuss more complex topics. It really is that simple. I don't understand why you had to vomit out 2 paragraphs with 0 substance about this topic and spell choices.

As for Crit/Haste, I guess that's more going to be about preference than anything.

... So is every other stat priority if you put it down like this. I have no idea what you even meant with this mind-numbingly dumb sentence.

- - - Updated - - -

Just an fyi, that addon is scaled for 110, not 100. So anything you're doing that's not on beta with that addon in its current iteration (from last I checked) is meaningless in regards to finding stat weights.

I have changed the stat values and I specifically mentioned what I used it on. If "Tyrant" and "HFA" didn't give you enough of a clue, I was talking about HFC.

But regarding mastery, in dungeons, its stupidly powerful. If you're trying to argue against that (which was mostly what was being said), then I'm not sure you've been paying attention to much of anything. With RDSW, mastery was consistently above 2.0 in a dungeon, purely because it's so much easier to keep 2-3 hots on the entire group.

I haven't said shit about dungeons. You have quoted my entire post, do you see any mention of a dungeon there?