Alliance vs Horde wounds reopened over a misunderstanding?

[Deleted]

To be fair, I think Genn wouldn't be that Pro-Faction War if Sylvanas ever gave him his country back.

There is no reason for Genn to trust Sylvanas in any way and not to attack her forces. After all, she is occupying his country. It's her who keps the hostility alive.

[Mehrunes]

The whole thing was a trap of the horde hadn't left the Legion would still have won.

Hell, the Legion would have won even if we beat all the demons that were around if only because we wouldn't be able to seal the portal anyway.

To be fair, I think Genn wouldn't be that Pro-Faction War if Sylvanas ever gave him his country back.

There is no reason for Genn to trust Sylvanas in any way and not to attack her forces. After all, she is occupying his country. It's her who keps the hostility alive.

Gilneas is abandoned, so no.

Well, the Alliance would never be surprised by a Legion ambush!
Especially SI:7 would NEVER allow themselves to be suddenly surrounded.
They would never allow the Legion to take down their leader.

Because people.. Let's be honest?
We all walked into this trap because of the incompetence of an Alliance group.
The Alliance fucked up.
The Alliance led us into this mess.
But we now have several threads whining about the Horde.

That's the beauty of certain Alliance players.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes. As Genn Graymane stated in the cinematic, the Alliance needed the Horde to ensure they weren't overrun.

They were about to win. Their only concern was the airspace. Gunship cleared the airspace, then suddenly they're about to lose.... seems legit.

[Vynny]

You could say that the entire Horde vs. Alliance history is built on misunderstandings between the two factions.

The original Horde was being manipulated by Gul'dan and the Legion into invading Azeroth. I'm not saying that the Orcs did nothing wrong whatsoever, but there were external forces pitting these two groups against each other.

Thrall's Horde and their initial conflicts with the Alliance stemmed from him trying to free his people from prison camps which the humans put them in for humanitarian reasons (as deluded and naive as that sounds).

Conflicts in Wrath of the Lich King stemmed from a rogue faction within the Forsaken attempting a coup and attacking the Alliance, Horde, and the Scourge at the Wrathgate and culminated in conflicts due to the Horde trying to make amends by saving Bolvar and the Alliance rushing to save their comrade.

A lot of the conflicts in Cataclysm stemmed from the Night Elves of Ashenvale refusing to trade with the Horde due to the Twilight's Hammer Clan (posing as Orcish agents from the Horde) attacking a meeting to discuss said trade deal leaving Garrosh to choose between invading Ashenvale or letting his people starve . . . it was an easy choice. But in the end, the Horde invading Ashenvale pushed the Alliance to invade the Barrens through Theramore which instigated the whole bombing of Theramore.

The misunderstandings that happened in Cataclysm directly lead to the continued aggression and escalation between the Horde and Alliance in MoP, and Garrosh going off the rails led to the Horde being left with the weight of his mistakes that betrayed the interests of the Horde at large which has worsened relations with the Alliance.

And now finally in this long line of misunderstandings, the Horde retreating due to being overrun and unable to cover Varian's chatty ass while he was having tea time with Gul'dan any longer is going to cause a lot of issues for Horde/Alliance relations in Legion.

[Magical Mudcrab]

They were about to win. Their only concern was the airspace. Gunship cleared the airspace, then suddenly they're about to lose.... seems legit.

It should seem legit, unless you want to make claims that are contrary to what happened in the cinematic. The Alliance needed the Horde to remain in their position to ensure that they weren't overrun, which is why they immediately began to retreat once their airship was able to lower itself.

[Aquamonkey]

It should seem legit, unless you want to make claims that are contrary to what happened in the cinematic. The Alliance needed the Horde to remain in their position to ensure that they weren't overrun, which is why they immediately began to retreat once their airship was able to lower itself.

What characters think isn't the same as what is true. At the point of the Horde's retreat, their position was not crucial to the Alliance's advance. The Legion forces that overran that location were way up on the cliff away from the Alliance. The only change to the Alliance that posed an critical threat happened after they started to run away when Gul'dan dropped a fel reaver.

The Alliance characters were just wrong. Either they were actually on the verge of victory, meaning they were wrong about needing the Horde to maintain their position. Or the Alliance was wrong about being on the verge of victory, meaning they were about to lose regardless of what the Horde did. The Horde maintaining their positoin would have done nothing to save the Alliance forces from Gul'dan dropping a fel reaver.

[Thoughtcrime]

I really agree with the sentiment that the AvH / Red v Blue should have been put to rest with Warcraft 3. Yes I know it's WARcraft, but the war can be one that makes sense. The war against the legion, the war against the void, and the war against any number of nightmares that blizzard can come up with. But constantly having contrived reasons to make both factions hate each other by simultaneously making both sides perpetrators and victims of atrocities makes me switch off from the whole storyline and disengage from the characters. WoW should have always been one faction, or been merged around about the time LK / Deathwing were wrecking the place.

[xChurch]

I feel like we're always doomed to get a very stretched reason to keep the RvB conflict going. Most of the conflicts between the two factions are misunderstandings.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What characters think isn't the same as what is true. At the point of the Horde's retreat, their position was not crucial to the Alliance's advance. The Legion forces that overran that location were way up on the cliff away from the Alliance. The only change to the Alliance that posed an critical threat happened after they started to run away when Gul'dan dropped a fel reaver.

The Alliance characters were just wrong. Either they were actually on the verge of victory, meaning they were wrong about needing the Horde to maintain their position. Or the Alliance was wrong about being on the verge of victory, meaning they were about to lose regardless of what the Horde did. The Horde maintaining their positoin would have done nothing to save the Alliance forces from Gul'dan dropping a fel reaver.

inb4 [wall of text].
(I'm sorry Aqua, I didn't mean for it to get this long)

The Alliance were most definitely wrong to believe they were on the verge of victory, as the Alliance and Horde armies both only battled through an army of maybe a few hundred or thousand demons in an army known to be in the millions. There was no way that the assault would have ended in their victory.

However, I think there's an inherent flaw with how many people are perceiving the situation, and it really detracts from any discussion in regards to the actions of an individual or group. This flaw is the meta knowledge we have. From a meta-level, it's very hard to understand certain ideas and judge the actions of a character(s), it also makes a lot of things characters do seem stupid.

From what we know about the Legion, we know that any assault on the portal is doomed to fail. Regardless as to how powerful the heroes of Azeroth are, we cannot hope to defeat an army like the Burning Legion's in a head-on assault; we cannot fight an army that numbers in the millions and is comprised of beings that will return in minutes/hours. However, that's not knowledge that the Alliance and Horde readily had available. Though they may have an idea as to the immensity of the Legion's armies and that demons can return in time, the rules that they previously knew about the Legion has been thrown on its head; both the size of the Legion's armies and their ability to return almost instantly is something that Azeroth has never face before, and was information that had either been explicitly stated or eluded to in supplementary materials for the Legion expansion. This an extremely important distinction, as this meta information is a distraction.

Here's how I interpreted the situation from a non-meta level. From what I saw, it looked as though the Alliance was planing to fight through the demons that were summoned to get to Gul'dan, while the Horde was to ensure they weren't overrun (ie: cover the Alliance's air support, and ensure the ridge wasn't overrun as it gave access to their flank and demons could scale down the ridge)[As an aside, the idea that the Legion could have opened portals on the Alliance's flank is not lost on me. However, the moment we get into the whole 'Well, you can put portals anywhere' talk, it effectively renders any preemptive planning moot as any defense can merely be breached by these portals]. Once the Horde retreated the ridge was immediately taken by the Legion. This left the Alliance's flank open, and the Alliance wasn't even prepared for a fight on a single front against the Legion, let alone on two.

From there, we would have had some interesting talking points which are based around how the Alliance and Horde separately perceived the situation. It's made fairly evident that both Varian and Sylvanas believed that the Alliance were on the precipice of victory, with Sylvanas even yelling at Varian to just kill Gul'dan already when Gul'dan was monologuing.
The Alliance perspective from there is very straight forward, they needed the Horde to defend the flank and the Horde retreated. From their perspective it is a betrayal, and it is nothing but a betrayal.
The Horde perspective is much more interesting because we don't know Sylvanas' inner thoughts. Overall, I think there's a few likely ideas of what was running through her head:
1) Survival: Sylvanas and the other Horde leaders were going to be overrun, and needed to immediately retreat in order to avoid this. It's understandable, though I've already stated my qualms with the Horde leadership's handling of the situation on this issue. Though I would posit that the Horde does not die with its faction leaders any more than the Alliance does.
2) Vol'jin gave Sylvanas an order to ensure the Horde "... did not die that day": Before Vol'jin fell unconscious he asked Sylvanas to ensure the Horde survived, which unfortunately doesn't really do anything but shift blame.
3) Varian had missed his opportunity/failed to kill Gul'dan and seal the portal: Sylvanas struck me as being annoyed with the Alliance taking so long to deal with Gul'dan, I am sympathetic to the idea that she may have believed that Varian had simply lost his opportunity to seal the deal.
I mention these because I think they would have been interesting talking points, but the opportunity has obviously been lost. I think most people have probably soured to the topic due to the inane faction rivalry turning its ugly head in some player's posts.

TL;DR:
I'm going to be blunt and say I don't think there is a way in which you can reasonably break down the situation and not conclude it was a betrayal. Even from a meta perspective, which I don't like to look at the situation from, the Alliance and Horde made a military agreement which the Horde seemed to go against by retreating and leaving the Alliance at the moment of truth, putting them in a more disadvantageous situation than they already were before. I've already stated what I thought about this situation, and said that calling it a betrayal is not inherently a moral judgement against the Horde, but that's all aside at this point.

Side Note:
In regards to the Fel Reaver, the reason it was so effective was due to how the Alliance retreated out of urgency. They were at risk of being flanked, and needed to immediately board the airship and allow themselves to become vulnerable to whatever dangers that entailed, and in this case the danger was having a Fel Reaver summoned directly beneath the airship. Had the retreat been a bit more drawn out I think it's very reasonable to say that the Fel Reaver would have been less effective as you would likely board your escape vessel a little farther back from the Legion's generals (and if Varian can kill it with a single strike, I would say a salvo from the airship may be effective enough to bring it down). That doesn't mean they would have gotten away scot-free, as we saw in the cinematic where a single Infernal landing on an airship was enough to bring it down. However, it is conjecture at best.

[Combatbutler]

The Alliance perspective from there is very straight forward, they needed the Horde to defend the flank and the Horde retreated. From their perspective it is a betrayal, and it is nothing but a betrayal.

Even considering their perspective you can't really say it is a betrayal, if no warning had been given then yes the argument could have been made, but a warning was given, even though without explanation. The Alliance immediately understood the horde was retreating, they just didn't know why at the time. It was possible to solve this mess afterwards if their respective ambassadors had met and properly explained what exactly happened back then, but this meeting does not happen, because Si7 feeds the Alliance leadership false intel.

[Makorus]

I mean, fuck, arguing over the entire Broken Shore invasion is insanely stupid because its insanely stupid from every aspect.

Like, just compare the Invasion of Draenor with the Broken Shore. They actually read intel about the Iron Horde during the Invasion, prepared themselves, had good tactics and stuff, and meanwhile, they just rushed to the Broken Shores, completely staggered (why did the Argent Crusade like go on their own?) and had NO idea of the Legions capability. Hell, they didnt like check out how big the Legions army is, or if they already constructed a foothold on Azeroth.

I dont blame the Horde, really. They walked straight into a deathtrap that was unwinnable. Once they saw teleporting dimension-traveling ships, they should have retreated.

[Deleted]

I mean, fuck, arguing over the entire Broken Shore invasion is insanely stupid because its insanely stupid from every aspect.

Like, just compare the Invasion of Draenor with the Broken Shore. They actually read intel about the Iron Horde during the Invasion, prepared themselves, had good tactics and stuff, and meanwhile, they just rushed to the Broken Shores, completely staggered (why did the Argent Crusade like go on their own?) and had NO idea of the Legions capability. Hell, they didnt like check out how big the Legions army is, or if they already constructed a foothold on Azeroth.

I dont blame the Horde, really. They walked straight into a deathtrap that was unwinnable. Once they saw teleporting dimension-traveling ships, they should have retreated.

To be fair, they also had intel from the Broken Shore directly from the SI:7 recons. What they didn't knew was Detheroc took control of the SI:7 during the recon operation.

So, going to the Broken Shore wasn't the mistake, not retreating as soon they found that something was very wrong was the mistake.

[Stormdash]

Devil's advocate about a retreat order, even though I agree they should probably have cut their losses -- retreat was not an easy thing to execute. Think back to the DK starting area and how LK and the EB manage to lure the Crusade to its death -- by drawing them into a situation they didn't realize had become overwhelming. Can't remember which NPC it was that exults that their only choice would be "fight with their backs turned" if they tried to flee. And the landing itself was not easy, per the Legion cinematic. So there is some sense to them sticking to "the only way out is forward" until all was truly lost.

[Deleted]

Just because your leader is wounded or killed in battle, is not reason to flee the battle entirely and leave your allies with no support, support which they rely on.

What else could the Horde do?

Vol'jin was dying, Thrall was close to dying (lost his powers because of the duel with Garrosh), Baine wasn't holding his own either and tended to Thrall, Sylvanas was meant to flank for the Alliance but was seeing their own people being obliterated, with a gigantic army coming their way. On top of all this, the Horde has just been through a civil war that decimated their numbers. There was no way they could pull this off. Retreat was the only option.

The Alliance was just stubborn for going after something that couldn't be achieved. That, and they simply don't know the Horde's situation to judge them. When do they make any attempt at communications with the Horde instead of assuming things?

[Stormdash]

Yeah, it is really a straight up plot error that there is apparently, post-Broken Shore, no effort by either faction to communicate directly over it. Fucking stupid, one might even say. Even at the height of the Cold War, there were channels of communication between the US and USSR. The Burning MF Legion is running roughshod and we are apparently to assume nobody reached out through even one of the dozen or more class orders or other neutral factions for some word of explanation or the need to regroup?

[Deleted]

Yeah, it is really a straight up plot error that there is apparently, post-Broken Shore, no effort by either faction to communicate directly over it. Fucking stupid, one might even say. Even at the height of the Cold War, there were channels of communication between the US and USSR. The Burning MF Legion is running roughshod and we are apparently to assume nobody reached out through even one of the dozen or more class orders or other neutral factions for some word of explanation or the need to regroup?

Unless if the KGB or the CIA is controlled by secret Nazis. Which is the case here.

[KyrtF]

Spoilers etc

I know there's already a thread with the prepatch cinematics and stuff but that's sort of all over the place with hundreds of different topics being addressed.

I wanted to ask isn't it just stupid that "For Azeroth" means nothing now over a stupid misunderstanding? The Alliance perspective obviously doesn't show the Horde warchief being stabbed in the stomach and therefore needing to retreat. It's understandable the Horde would have to retreat.

But the Alliance don't know that at this stage. They think they're just being cowards and running away which is not true. Do the Alliance not think to maybe ask Sylvanas wtf that was all about before going at each others throats again in Legion?

I understand Alliance vs Horde is a mandatory part of gameplay and they have to shoehorn the conflict in somewhere but this is just badly done in my opinion. I don't know, maybe it's just me who thinks this could've gone a lot better with betrayals and real drama instead of a literal camera angle misunderstanding.

No.

I really, really, really hate to say this.....

But there was no misunderstanding. The Horde broke and ran. They abandoned the fight to save themselves.

As a Horde member myself, it was (for my character) shameful. We're fighting the Legion, driving them off before they secure a foothold, a suicide mission that would be worth every single life in both armies...and the first order Sylvanas gives in "run away"?

This was an all or nothing effort. And the Horde bailed. I know it had to be done, that the Legion had to win...but I would have preferred the Alliance to crack first. Or the Horde to hold the line while both armies retreated.

Instead...we see Vol'jin fall, Sylvanas take command, Sylvanas look around to see there are more demons and Sylvanas ordering a retreat. Worse...Vol'jins last order was "save the Horde" so you can't even really make the argument she had no choice.

So - not a misunderstanding. The Horde broke. The Horde ran. The Horde moved to save its own skin. I don't think I've ever been so disappointed with a cinematic.

Why can't the Horde be the obvious heroes for a change? Why couldn't the Alliance have broken?

[Combatbutler]

No.

I really, really, really hate to say this.....

But there was no misunderstanding. The Horde broke and ran. They abandoned the fight to save themselves.

As a Horde member myself, it was (for my character) shameful. We're fighting the Legion, driving them off before they secure a foothold, a suicide mission that would be worth every single life in both armies...and the first order Sylvanas gives in "run away"?

This was an all or nothing effort. And the Horde bailed. I know it had to be done, that the Legion had to win...but I would have preferred the Alliance to crack first. Or the Horde to hold the line while both armies retreated.

Instead...we see Vol'jin fall, Sylvanas take command, Sylvanas look around to see there are more demons and Sylvanas ordering a retreat. Worse...Vol'jins last order was "save the Horde" so you can't even really make the argument she had no choice.

So - not a misunderstanding. The Horde broke. The Horde ran. The Horde moved to save its own skin. I don't think I've ever been so disappointed with a cinematic.

Why can't the Horde be the obvious heroes for a change? Why couldn't the Alliance have broken?

First Vol'jin gave the order of retreat and secondly yes the horde was broken and had to retreat, but that does not make this a betrayal or shameful, staying and fighting a lost battle, now that would have been shameful and pure idiocy, the moment the Alliance heard the sound of retreat from the horde they realized they had to leave as well, like any sensible army would.

You call this cowardly, but it was the only sensible choice, the horde was overwhelmed by the legion invasion bosses and bombarded by three legion space ships, so of course their ranks would break, just as the Argent crusade was crushed, both Alliance and horde can consider themselves lucky they made it out of there. The counterattack had absolutely zero chance of succeeding from the very beginning.

Besides it makes sense for the horde to break first, they should after all be the weaker faction after the MoP fiasco.

[Stormdash]

No.

I really, really, really hate to say this.....

But there was no misunderstanding. The Horde broke and ran. They abandoned the fight to save themselves.

As a Horde member myself, it was (for my character) shameful. We're fighting the Legion, driving them off before they secure a foothold, a suicide mission that would be worth every single life in both armies...and the first order Sylvanas gives in "run away"?

This was an all or nothing effort. And the Horde bailed. I know it had to be done, that the Legion had to win...but I would have preferred the Alliance to crack first. Or the Horde to hold the line while both armies retreated.

Instead...we see Vol'jin fall, Sylvanas take command, Sylvanas look around to see there are more demons and Sylvanas ordering a retreat. Worse...Vol'jins last order was "save the Horde" so you can't even really make the argument she had no choice.

So - not a misunderstanding. The Horde broke. The Horde ran. The Horde moved to save its own skin. I don't think I've ever been so disappointed with a cinematic.

Why can't the Horde be the obvious heroes for a change? Why couldn't the Alliance have broken?

Two points of interest --

1) the Horde, unlike the Alliance, was dividing its attention to help the other faction. Basically 1.5 factions were fighting the enemies below and 0.5 factions were fighting the enemies on the ridge.
2) there were A LOT MORE UP THERE. There was no "let's exchange ominous threats and promises" detente on that slaughter house of a ridge, there was just... hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of demons.

Those two facts combine to awful effect -- instead of supporting the Horde, Sylvanas and her rangers are covering the Alliance's positions. The Warchief mortally wounded, most of their most powerful pieces out of the game, and still more demons coming up at them, Vol'jin gave the order, Sylvanas followed. No, there is no rational, intelligent, or honest way to interpret Vol'jin's command other than as one to retreat. "Do not let the Horde die this day" is not secret code for "continue getting cut to pieces by demons in what is obviously a hopeless cause".

Which, third point of interest? It was a hopeless cause. All present were fighting and dying for nothing, since we know now that the portal could not be closed without the Pillars of Creation.

[Makorus]

No.

I really, really, really hate to say this.....

But there was no misunderstanding. The Horde broke and ran. They abandoned the fight to save themselves.

As a Horde member myself, it was (for my character) shameful. We're fighting the Legion, driving them off before they secure a foothold, a suicide mission that would be worth every single life in both armies...and the first order Sylvanas gives in "run away"?

This was an all or nothing effort. And the Horde bailed. I know it had to be done, that the Legion had to win...but I would have preferred the Alliance to crack first. Or the Horde to hold the line while both armies retreated.

Instead...we see Vol'jin fall, Sylvanas take command, Sylvanas look around to see there are more demons and Sylvanas ordering a retreat. Worse...Vol'jins last order was "save the Horde" so you can't even really make the argument she had no choice.

So - not a misunderstanding. The Horde broke. The Horde ran. The Horde moved to save its own skin. I don't think I've ever been so disappointed with a cinematic.

Why can't the Horde be the obvious heroes for a change? Why couldn't the Alliance have broken?

Look at the size of both armies.

Both the Horde was overrun by teleporting ships and a huge amount of portals, and the Alliance had to face like the strongest demons, reincarnated, right in front of them.

There was 0% chance to win that fight, not while the Tomb of Sargeras was still open, and the leaders had NO idea how to close it. If they would have kept fighting, they would have lost their strongest heroes, all of them, and then the Legion would have actually won. But by "running away" now, they still managed to save some people.

Whats the point of throwing your life away for nothing? That has nothing to do with being stupid but with being able to fight another day.

Also, driving them off before they secure a foothold? They already had a foothold, and the Tomb of Sargeras LITERALLY allowed them to just move there, and once again, its not easily closed.