RCMP allows Muslim women Mounties to wear hijab

[Chrysia]

They've been feeding on Islamic lies for years about the ''evils of male gaze'' and how it seemingly distracts and corrupts men if they see exposed flesh.
It's insanity. And people like you are feeding it.

Mennonites and Seventh Day Adventists near where I live have almost the exact same dress code.

[anon5123]

The point is, you telling her she shouldn't be wearing it is in no form different from Muslim men telling her she SHOULD wear it.

In both cases, you're shaming her for not dressing according to your ideological preferences. If you have issue with men who'd try to make her cover herself, the reasonable response is not to demand that she expose herself for you.

The difference is in those "ideological preferences".

One side wants women to not wear them because they don't feel the need to force women to wear special clothes just because they're women.

The other side wants to force women to wear them because their society treats women like second-class citizens.

And that's ignoring the whole "it's supposed to cover them up so that men aren't tempted to rape them" bullshit, which is an entire other debate in itself.

I'm all for letting people live how they want to, but when their lifestyle involves treating women like shit and oppressing them to high hell, for no reason other than "muh religion", that's where I draw the line.

And since when does not wanting someone to live in oppression count as "shaming them" ? Literally what.

[Endus]

The difference is in those "ideological preferences".

One side wants women to not wear them because they don't feel the need to force women to wear special clothes just because they're women.

The other side wants to force women to wear them because their society treats women like second-class citizens.

You're deliberately biasing that.

The first one, you're treating women as second-class citizens in exactly the same way, because you're stating that you know better than they do how they should dress. It's the same thing. It is not different.

Yes, you think you're "protecting" them. So do they. That's your justification for treating them as if they can't take make their own decisions for themselves. In both cases.

[announced]

hijabs are fine, nothing wrong with that. as long as it doesnt mess up their peripheral vision then they can do their jobs just fine. although on hot sunny days i dont see how having a hijab helps especially if you have sweat pouring down your face.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Mennonites and Seventh Day Adventists near where I live have almost the exact same dress code.

I grew up near a sizable Amish community, it was the same for their women, always had the hair covered in bonnets. Sexy, sexy bonnets.

Usually this:


Sometimes this:

[anon5123]

The first one, you're treating women as second-class citizens in exactly the same way, because you're stating that you know better than they do how they should dress. It's the same thing. It is not different.

So not forcing them to wear special clothing that covers their body = "treating them like second class citizens"

okay

I'm not telling them how to dress, I'm telling them that they're not forced to dress a specific way.

And again, is it really that bad to not want them to wear clothing that signifies oppression of women? You're arguing from a standpoint of muslims oppressing women being perfectly okay, and you're implying that women are perfectly happy with being forced to wear all black while men can dress freely. I've seen enough "women removing their hijabs after being liberated from (insert middle-eastern country here)" posts to know that they don't particularly enjoy wearing them.

One side is oppressing the hell out of women and the other side isn't, and yet you're claiming they're the same thing. What.

AND on top of all this, I never said they couldn't, I'm saying they shouldn't. If they want to self-hate and wear something that signifies oppression against themselves, go right ahead. I'll just be over here shaking my head in disgust at it.

Yes, you think you're "protecting" them. So do they.

Except that muslims make women wear these things as a form of victim-blaming, that if women don't cover up their whole bodies, men will uncontrollably rape them and it's the womens' fault for not covering themselves up. They're "protecting" women in a horrifically oppressive way. It's completely fucked up bronze-age morality. Just because it's their culture/religion, doesn't make it okay. It's the 21st century. The rest of the civilized world moved on past such nonsense many decades ago.

That's the difference here. One side is "protecting" them by oppressing them and telling them that they're not equals and treating them as such, the other side is "protecting" them by insisting that they don't wear things that signify hate and prejudice against themselves, instead wanting them to be equals and treating them as such.

So unless you want to argue that treating women like shit is perfectly okay, I don't see what the problem is, here.

[Wells]

Except that muslims make women wear these things as a form of victim-blaming, that if women don't cover up their whole bodies, men will uncontrollably rape them and it's the womens' fault for not covering themselves up. They're "protecting" women in a horrifically oppressive way. It's completely fucked up bronze-age morality. Just because it's their culture/religion, doesn't make it okay. It's the 21st century. The rest of the civilized world moved on past such nonsense many decades ago.

That's the difference here. One side is "protecting" them by oppressing them and telling them that they're not equals and treating them as such, the other side is "protecting" them by insisting that they don't wear things that signify hate and prejudice against themselves, instead wanting them to be equals and treating them as such.

So unless you want to argue that treating women like shit is perfectly okay, I don't see what the problem is, here.

How is this not exactly the same? You're explicitly arguing for telling women what they're allowed to wear for their own good.

[Deletedaccount1]

Not allowing someone to wear a Hijab is a pretty blatant violation of religious liberty.

[Wells]

Pretty blatant violation of religious liberty.

Allowing them to hear a hijab is?

[Deletedaccount1]

Allowing them to hear a hijab is?

Woops I have made a mistake.

[anon5123]

How is this not exactly the same? You're explicitly arguing for telling women what they're allowed to wear for their own good.

Read:

I never said they couldn't, I'm saying they shouldn't.

And even if I was "telling them what they're allowed to wear", we still have the difference of me telling them what to wear as a way of not wanting them to hate themselves or think of themselves as lesser beings, VS muslims telling them what to wear in order to oppress them and treat them as 2nd class citizens.

Everyone seems to have this idea that women are willingly wearing these things on their own volition, that hijabs AREN'T a form of oppression used by muslim societies to enforce the idea of women being second-class citizens. It's pretty scary. Just because something is religious, does not mean it's perfectly okay and we need to tolerate it.

As someone else said, everyone hates muslims when it comes to their practices of arranged marriages and not allowing women to drive, and all that stuff...but forcing them to wear special clothing to cover up their body is perfectly okay and we need to respect that?

[Wells]

Ah, so you only suggest what women should wear for their own good.

Everyone seems to have this idea that women are willingly wearing these things on their own volition, that hijabs AREN'T a form of oppression used by muslim societies to enforce the idea of women being second-class citizens. It's pretty scary. Just because something is religious, does not mean it's perfectly okay and we need to tolerate it.

Its only scary if you preclude the idea that muslim women are also adults capable of making decisions on their own that you might disagree with.

[TrumpIsPresident]

Its only scary if you preclude the idea that muslim women are also adults capable of making decisions on their own that you might disagree with.

Their capability to make their own decisions is one thing. Them being able to carry out those decisions is sometime quite another matter altogether.

And societies tell people what to do all the time based on what the greater whole sees as fitting. Remember the confederate flag hysteria?

[Wells]

Their capability to make their own decisions is one thing. Them being able to carry out those decisions is sometime quite another matter altogether.

And societies tell people what to do all the time based on what the greater whole sees as fitting. Remember the confederate flag hysteria?

So make it illegal to force a woman to wear a hijab, or any other piece of clothing. Which is already is.

This is a nonsolution in search of a problem.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It's the whole home lifestyle issue, where the hijab is a symbol of besting temptation and preserving the honor of the woman against the eyes of men. The use of one is something ingrained in their heads as children by their parents, typically their fathers, though it's something not at all mandated by the koran. Obviously this isn't always the case, there are plenty who do it by choice though their rationale is sometimes, odd. Whereby wearing the hijab somehow elevates a woman to a "position of respect" which in my mind is kind of a dangerous sentiment. As if to say they were somehow not worthy of it already.

It's a tough one to suss out too, can find plenty of articles and blogs on either side of the issue. Some defending it, others agreeing that it's oppressive. I can't help but feel sad for those who defend it though, since it often comes off as being a symptom of that childhood religious education. The same way that catholic parents haul their kids off to church and sunday school, or Jews and the Brit Milah and Mitzvah. Where the concept of choice is kind of eroded to make way for their family's faith.

The old Times article by Asra Nomani sums up my objections to the hijab in general.



I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to.

My thing is that they shouldn't have to feel obligated to do so in the first place.

As long as she feels obligated by her religion and not because someone said she has to...it isn't an issue. It's no different than any other religious wear in that regard.

[Dellis0991]

Good stuff.

Though the hijab is nothing more than a symbol of the continued oppression of muslim women and shouldn't really be a thing in a free country.

Not really some women wear it because its makes them feel comfortable...it really doesn't mean anything anymore, I seen women of Islamic faith wear them and I seen them with out them too its now personal choice.

[Bapestar]

Good news. Finally someone did the right thing for once.

[Ahovv]

There shouldn't be anything illegal about it because it's an individual's choice. There is something to be said about childhood indoctrination, but not much to be done about that.

[Endus]

So not forcing them to wear special clothing that covers their body = "treating them like second class citizens"

okay

I'm not telling them how to dress, I'm telling them that they're not forced to dress a specific way.

No, that stance would be "wear whatever you like!" Not a stance, like yours, opposing what they ARE wearing.

And again, is it really that bad to not want them to wear clothing that signifies oppression of women? You're arguing from a standpoint of muslims oppressing women being perfectly okay, and you're implying that women are perfectly happy with being forced to wear all black while men can dress freely. I've seen enough "women removing their hijabs after being liberated from (insert middle-eastern country here)" posts to know that they don't particularly enjoy wearing them.

One side is oppressing the hell out of women and the other side isn't, and yet you're claiming they're the same thing. What.

The "oppression" is that they're being told how to dress, and that choice is being taken away from them.

And that's what you're trying to do, by claiming their clothes "signify oppression" and they shouldn't be allowed to wear them. It's like insisting that a boyfriend stop punching his wife, so you can take over punching her, because domestic violence is terrible! It misses the point.

AND on top of all this, I never said they couldn't, I'm saying they shouldn't. If they want to self-hate and wear something that signifies oppression against themselves, go right ahead. I'll just be over here shaking my head in disgust at it.

Aaaand this is no different from saying "I'm not saying they should be legally required to wear a burqa, but not wearing one clearly means they're shameless whores."

Same attitude. Which is why I'm taking issue with BOTH sides. Because I take issue with people who think they know better than women how they should dress.

[anon5123]

Its only scary if you preclude the idea that muslim women are also adults capable of making decisions on their own that you might disagree with.

And you're assuming that muslim women are willfully choosing to wear hijabs on their own, when that isn't the case at all. Nice try though.

Aaaand this is no different from saying "I'm not saying they should be legally required to wear a burqa, but not wearing one clearly means they're shameless whores."

So basically yes, you're under the impression that wanting women to be free and equal is no different than wanting women to be oppressed, 2nd-class citizens. You're completely ignoring every other part of the puzzle just to focus on a single standpoint and claim that both sides are equal. You're ignoring the fact that hijabs are representative of a religion that treats women like shit. You're ignoring the fact that they're forced to wear them, not choosing to wear them on their own volition. Etc. etc.

I'll be going then, since this debate is just going in circles with you ignoring everything except the thing that supports your argument.