Turkey sends tanks in syria

[Ulmita]

There is nothing proposed about it, Germany already fields the 2A7. Do you ever bother to read what you link?

The 2A6 and M1A2 are about equal in armor (but the M1 has far less of a "bullet trap") and speed. The 2A6 has longer range than the M1 because it gets about 2X the MPG. The 2A6 has a better version of the Rhienmetall 120mm main gun (being 55 caliber vs 44 caliber), but the M1 has better secondary armament. The T-90 is inferior to both in armor and speed, and the effective range of the T-90s 125mm main gun is less than the effective range of either 120mm guns. It is the T-90 that doesnt belong in the same sentence with the M1A2 and 2A6.

the Leo2A7 is an upgrade from the A6, as for the proposed part it is mentioned as is in the article i linked.

Also the T-90MS has superior armament, range and speed that the M1A2. Also it can fire 9K119M/9M119M Refleks-M ATGW from main gun making it tasty.

T90-MS

Entered service	?
Crew	3 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight	48 t
Length (gun forward)	~ 10 m
Hull length	~ 6.8 m
Width	~ 3.5 m
Height	~ 2.3 m
Armament
Main gun	125-mm smoothbore
ATGW	9K119M (AT-11 Sniper-B)
Machine guns	2 x 7.62-mm
Elevation range	- 6 to + 14 degrees
Traverse range	360 degrees
Ammunition load
Main gun	40 rounds
Machine guns	2 800 rounds
Mobility
Engine	V-92S2F diesel
Engine power	1 130 hp
Maximum road speed	72 km/h
Range	550 km
Maneuverability
Gradient	60%
Side slope	40%
Vertical step	0.8 m
Trench	2.85 m
Fording	1.2 m
Fording (with preparation)	5 m

M1A2

Entered service	1992
Crew	4 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight	62.5 t
Length (gun forward)	9.83 m
Hull length	7.92 m
Width	3.48 m
Height	2.44 m
Armament
Main gun	120-mm smoothbore
Machine guns	2 x 7.62-mm, 1 x 12.7-mm
Elevation range	- 9 to + 20 degrees
Traverse range	360 degrees
Ammunition load
Main gun	40 rounds
Machine guns	12 400 x 7.62, 1 000 x 12.7
Mobility
Engine	Honeywell AGT1500 gas turbine
Engine power	1 500 hp
Maximum road speed	67 km/h
Range	425 km
Maneuverability
Gradient	60%
Side slope	40%
Vertical step	1 m
Trench	2.7 m
Fording	1.2 m
Fording (with preparation)	2 m

[Skroe]

Sweden plz. I'm eagerly waiting the next WarDrivingVehicle 3000 and MovingAboveTheWaterContraption 5X1000 designs.

What I love about it is it's yet another Pelikan tail. This seems to be a recurring thing. Pelikan tails have the advantage of saving a lot of weight and offering significantly better stealth (namely lateral IR radiation shielding). You can also do exotic wing designs. The downside is that they're complex to impliment and offer worse manuverability than a normal tail design.

Where have I seen these tails before?



Oh that's right, the Northrop YF-23, the stealthier, faster aircraft that was passed over by the Air Force in favor of the more manuverable Lockheed Martin YF-22.

Oh, and you want irony, here is Lockheed Martin's preliminary public design for the F-X fighter, the sixth generation F-22 successor beyond 2030 (which will undoubtedly look significantly different than this, but since the contract started last year, this indicates a direction they're thinking)



Yep for their sixth generation fighter, Lockheed is proposing their once-rival's fifth generation fighter with a different wing. Pelikan tail and all.

Oh and it's made funnier by this:
The Boeing X-32

The Boeing entry into the JSF program, which lost to the Lockheed Martin X-35 / F-35. The X-32 had a Pelikan tail (the "F-32" would not have though as the monolithic wing design shown here was very difficult and expensive to fabricate as one piece). The F-35 of course, has a conventional tail.


But yeah, Lockheed has seen the light, and the next generation of fighters they want to build will have Pelikan tails.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[tumppu]

Well, you lot are nothing if not predictable. A couple of pages and here we are linking Jane's pages and comparing MBT specs.

Why does mankind need a military industrial complex? Because you idiots are rooting for it tooth and nail. Sometimes I think a world war to end it all would actually be better, if only to prevent our madness from spreading further.

[Skroe]

Well, you lot are nothing if not predictable. A couple of pages and here we are linking Jane's pages and comparing MBT specs.

Why does mankind need a military industrial complex? Because you idiots are rooting for it tooth and nail. Sometimes I think a world war to end it all would actually be better, if only to prevent our madness from spreading further.

Because our differences are meaningful and significant. We all can't just get along and colonize Mars together.

The West and Russia, and America and China have significant and hugely meaningful differences of opinion on perhaps the most fundamental question of all: "how shall man live?" Live and let live isn't going to work when at one end you have liberty and the other tyranny. The two will not co-exist forever. And don't believe that the arc of history is long and bends towards justice and liberty crap either.

The arc of history is a vicious bitch that gives blood noses if you take it for granted. The justice and liberty that exists in this world came about because the free become powerful and fought and won against tyranny, in vicious, brutal, expensive fights.

This is a zero-sum world, like it or not. We rise, or they do. Conversations like that reflect that, and not dawdling, immature idealism that if only we could cooperate (as in, be blind deaf and dumb to our rivals threats and moral outrages), we could live the Star Trek dream or some garbage like that. Let's keep in mind how United Earth in Star Trek came about: after World War III, in which the West wiped out all of its rivals.

[Cybran]

More inane ramblings from a chicken hawk neo-con wanting to spill other people's blood for his own gain.


Meanwhile the Turks are killing Kurds in Manbij. The same Kurds that the Americans were supposed to help against ISIS. Americans should shove their liberty and democracy up their ass.

[Ulmita]

More inane ramblings from a chicken hawk neo-con wanting to spill other people's blood for his own gain.


Meanwhile the Turks are killing Kurds in Manbij. The same Kurds that the Americans were supposed to help against ISIS. Americans should shove their liberty and democracy up their ass.

It looks to me that they are trying to establish a no fly zone or line in their borders. i hope i am wrong.

[Cybran]

It looks to me that they are trying to establish a no fly zone or line in their borders. i hope i am wrong.

https://twitter.com/DefenseUnits/sta...918208?lang=en

The Turks are firing chemical weapons on the Kurdish civilians. While Kerry is in Turkey. He must have given them the go ahead.

[tumppu]

"The arc of history is a vicious bitch that gives blood noses if you take it for granted. The justice and liberty that exists in this world came about because the free become powerful and fought and won against tyranny, in vicious, brutal, expensive fights. "

The arc of history is far longer than you, me, and mankind put together. That is something we seem to like to forget. So, if you want to paint some apocalyptic scenarios, here's one. Mankind wipes itself out. The end.

There's plenty of universe to go on without our little speck, but while we inhabit said speck, I'd rather we do not try to mutually kill each other on it over something as stupid as fucking politics. Or oil. You yanks seem to have a thing for oil. (yanks refers to generic US citizens and no disrespect is meant toward people in the southern states who happen to love oil).

So: "Turkey sends tanks to Syria" -> cue ours is the mightiest military and ya'll suck -talk from the regular warhawks. It's stupid and predictable, but that's just what this forum is, right? Stupid and predictable. I don't know why I even bother.

Do you, Skroe, actually have anything other than the usual power politics tirade to contribute, because I doubt the opposition has anything else than the generic power politics suck tirade to counter it, with a whiff of "but we" thrown in. USA *could* be a force of good, but people like you keep it tied down in its eternal "manifest destiny" bullshit role. If this world at one time gets wiped out, USA will have it's hand in it and not because you're "great". It's because (some of) you utterly suck at being human.

And here's a confession: I'm hardly perfect, or even mostly good. I dislike religions and some cultures, but I'm trying to understand things. World's leaders travel around all the time, but they all seem to continuously throw away chances of actually doing good in order to gain "votes" back home. We're more connected than ever, yet our lives are further apart than ever. I've pretty much thrown in the towel, being over forty. There's young kids here who hopefully still dream that the world can actually co-exist. I put my faith in them and will just live my life out, hopefully, in peace.

And if you lot manage to to screw that up, Fuck You All. Peace, out.

[Kellhound]

the Leo2A7 is an upgrade from the A6, as for the proposed part it is mentioned as is in the article i linked.

Also the T-90MS has superior armament, range and speed that the M1A2. Also it can fire 9K119M/9M119M Refleks-M ATGW from main gun making it tasty.

Your source clearly states the German Army has already recieved 2A7s, hardly a "proposed" upgrade when they are already being fielded.

You stated T-90, not T-90MS. The speed of the M1A2 listed is the official governed speed. The 125mm is inferior in effective range to either version of the 120mm, it also has a more restricted elevation range (both positive and negative) than the M1A2. It also has a limited number of ready rounds. The T-90MS requires reactive armor fitted to meet the integrated armor of the M1A2, and the latest US APFSDS round was developed specifically to defeat Relikt. It also has more of a "bullet trap" issue.

So it can fire a missile that can be jammed and lacks sufficient penetration. Not really that tasty.

[Ulmita]

Your source clearly states the German Army has already recieved 2A7s, hardly a "proposed" upgrade when they are already being fielded.

You stated T-90, not T-90MS. The speed of the M1A2 listed is the official governed speed. The 125mm is inferior in effective range to either version of the 120mm, it also has a more restricted elevation range (both positive and negative) than the M1A2. It also has a limited number of ready rounds. The T-90MS requires reactive armor fitted to meet the integrated armor of the M1A2, and the latest US APFSDS round was developed specifically to defeat Relikt. It also has more of a "bullet trap" issue.

So it can fire a missile that can be jammed and lacks sufficient penetration. Not really that tasty.

My point is you can't order LeoA7 since they are an upgrade of the LeaA6.

The word proposed is IN the article itself. Let me quote so you can see it yourself:

The Leopard 2A7 main battle tank was developed by German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann in cooperation with the German Army. It is a proposed upgrade package for existing MBTs. It was first revealed in 2010. It is a further development of the Leopard 2A6 MBT.

AKA the leo2A7 IT IS AN UPGRADED A6. AKA you cant order A7s. You need to have A6s first.

The 125 mm is an improved version of the 125 mm the T80 and it has range will over 4km.
Whats the range of the 120 of the M1A2?

Also, lol at your missile comment. You made me smile Kell, God bless dude and i was having a shitty day.

[Deleted]

More inane ramblings from a chicken hawk neo-con wanting to spill other people's blood for his own gain.

I.e. they are doing what every other major power before them has. Tough shit, that's the world we are living in. Nations and tribes who failed to take advantage whenever the circumstances allowed them to have ended being museum pieces.

Do you even history, Cryban?

[Kuntantee]

https://twitter.com/DefenseUnits/sta...918208?lang=en

The Turks are firing chemical weapons on the Kurdish civilians. While Kerry is in Turkey. He must have given them the go ahead.

Bullshit

/10chars

[Deleted]

We have an amazing number of unemployed engineering and industrial design graduates dying to get internships in institutions like Aselsan, who design military vehicles and such. They deliver pizza instead; as there is little to no demand for industrial production;

I think solving that is way more important than going into the vanity project of building a national fighter.

- - - Updated - - -

Why does mankind need a military industrial complex?

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it.
And that is the reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's keep in mind how United Earth in Star Trek came about: after World War III, in which the West wiped out all of its rivals.

Somehow the Trekkies always forget that.

[Kuntantee]

I think solving that is way more important than going into the vanity project of building a national fighter.

Is that what you are told by your Western allies? Building a jet fighter is a priceless experience. You might a layman on the subject, but real-time operating systems are mostly closed source and there is a massive lack of public knowledge (engineering wise, not scientifically) because the knowledge is developed and contained in corporate environment.

And what @madokbro said is pure nonsense, as always. What a clueless individual. I didn't want to delve into that as it is off-topic. I have masters in comp. eng., bsc in soft. eng., I have tons of engineer friends. None of them had difficulty to find job to "sustain themselves". This is especially true in anything related with electronics and software. The companies making use of these disciplines are not solely in defense industry.

Those who deliver pizza are incompetent engineers, aka, those who slept through university.

EDIT: Also, avionics programming is different from usual programming. It requires determinism for a particular function or piece of code. It has real-time constraints so on and so forth. This kind of knowledge is only available in companies dealing with these kind of stuff. The ones on the web are usually superficial.

[hellhamster]

"The arc of history is a vicious bitch that gives blood noses if you take it for granted. The justice and liberty that exists in this world came about because the free become powerful and fought and won against tyranny, in vicious, brutal, expensive fights. "

The arc of history is far longer than you, me, and mankind put together. That is something we seem to like to forget. So, if you want to paint some apocalyptic scenarios, here's one. Mankind wipes itself out. The end.

There's plenty of universe to go on without our little speck, but while we inhabit said speck, I'd rather we do not try to mutually kill each other on it over something as stupid as fucking politics. Or oil. You yanks seem to have a thing for oil. (yanks refers to generic US citizens and no disrespect is meant toward people in the southern states who happen to love oil).

So: "Turkey sends tanks to Syria" -> cue ours is the mightiest military and ya'll suck -talk from the regular warhawks. It's stupid and predictable, but that's just what this forum is, right? Stupid and predictable. I don't know why I even bother.

Do you, Skroe, actually have anything other than the usual power politics tirade to contribute, because I doubt the opposition has anything else than the generic power politics suck tirade to counter it, with a whiff of "but we" thrown in. USA *could* be a force of good, but people like you keep it tied down in its eternal "manifest destiny" bullshit role. If this world at one time gets wiped out, USA will have it's hand in it and not because you're "great". It's because (some of) you utterly suck at being human.

And here's a confession: I'm hardly perfect, or even mostly good. I dislike religions and some cultures, but I'm trying to understand things. World's leaders travel around all the time, but they all seem to continuously throw away chances of actually doing good in order to gain "votes" back home. We're more connected than ever, yet our lives are further apart than ever. I've pretty much thrown in the towel, being over forty. There's young kids here who hopefully still dream that the world can actually co-exist. I put my faith in them and will just live my life out, hopefully, in peace.

And if you lot manage to to screw that up, Fuck You All. Peace, out.

I believe it's been pointed out by philosophers ages ago that humanity would simply cease to exist without strife, as it is the only thing giving us true purpose in life and without it we would be lost. It sucks, but that's how we evolved.

[Deleted]

Is that what you are told by your Western allies? Building a jet fighter is a priceless experience. You might a layman on the subject, but real-time operating systems are mostly closed source and there is a massive lack of public knowledge (engineering wise, not scientifically) because the knowledge is developed and contained in corporate environment.

I'm Swedish - We are the smallest country on earth to develop and build a 4th generation jet fighter - Want to know who the closes competitor is?
(hint you need + 50-55 million people or so) - So to be clear it can be done - But, we import the engine, the missiles are joint projects, and the Gripen has a continuous habit of eating all defence spending.
But sure, you could join the illustrious list:

Tornado ADV European Union Panavia Aircraft GmbH 218 1979 1985–2011 18.68 13.91/8.60 26.60 14,500 kg 27,986 kg 2,337 4,265 15,240 2 × 40.5 kN/73.5 kN
Typhoon European Union Eurofighter GmbH 571 1994 2003–Present 15.96 10.95 51.20 11,000 kg 23,500 kg 2,124 3,790 19,812 2 × 60 kN/90 kN
Mirage 2000 France 601 1978 1982–Present 14.36 9.13 41.00 7,500 kg 17,000 kg 2,337 3,335 17,060 1 × 64.3 kN/95.1 kN
Rafale France 126 1986 2001–Present 15.27 10.80 45.70 10,196 kg 22,200 kg 1,912 3,700 15,235 2 × 50.04 kN/75.62 kN
HAL Tejas India 19 2001 2015–Present 13.20 8.20 38.40 6,500 kg 13500 kg [37] 2,205 3,000 15,000 1 × 53.9 kN/89.8 kN
F-2 Japan 98 1995 2000–Present 15.52 11.13 34.84 9,527 kg 22,090 kg 2,124 834 18,000 1 × 76 kN/125 kN
JF-17 Pakistan
66[38] 2003 2007–Present 14.93 9.45 24.40 5,300 kg 12,383 kg 1,837 3,482 13,220 1 × 49.4 kN/84.5 kN
JH-7 People's Republic of China 240 1988 1992–Present 22.32 12.80 14,500 kg 28,475 kg 1,808 3,700 16,000 2 × 54.29 kN/91.26 kN
J-11/J-15/J-16 People's Republic of China 253+ 1998 1998–Present 21.90 14.70 62.04 16,380 kg 33,000 kg 2,496 3,530 19,000 2 × 75.22 kN/132.0 kN
J-10 People's Republic of China 400+ 1998 2005–Present 15.49 9.75 33.10 9,750 kg 19,277 kg 2,336 1,850 18,000 1 × 89.17 kN/130.0 kN
F-CK-1 Ching-kuo Republic of China 130 1989 1994–Present 14.21 9.46 24.20 6,500 kg 12,000 kg 1,911 1,100 16,800 2 × 27.0 kN/42.0 kN
MiG-29/35 Soviet Union 1,600 1977 1983–Present 17.37 11.40 38.00 11,000 kg 20,000 kg 2,400 2,100 18,013 2 × 50.0 kN/81.3 kN
MiG-31 Soviet Union 500 1975 1981–Present 22.69 13.46 61.60 21,820 kg 46,200 kg 3,005 3,300 20,600 2 × 93.0 kN/152.0 kN
Su-27/30/33/35 Soviet Union 1,391 1977 1985–Present 21.90 14.70 62.00 16,380 kg 30,450 kg 2,496 3,530 19,000 2 × 75.22 kN/122.6 kN
JAS 39 Gripen Sweden 247 1988 1997–Present 14.10 8.40 30.00 6,800 kg 14,000 kg 2,204 3,200 15,240 1 × 54.0 kN/80.5 kN
F-14 Tomcat United States 712 1970 1974–9/2006 19.10 19.55/11.58 54.50 19,838 kg 33,730 kg 2,485 2,960 15,200 2 × 61.4 kN/123.7 kN
F-15 Eagle United States 1,198 1972 1976–Present 19.43 13.05 56.50 12,700 kg 30,845 kg 2,665 5,550 20,000 2 × 64.9 kN/105.7 kN
F-16 Fighting Falcon United States 4,500 1974 1978–Present 15.06 9.96 27.87 8,570 kg 19,200 kg 2,120 4,220 15,240 1 × 76.3 kN/127.0 kN
F/A-18 Hornet United States 1,480 1974 1983–Present 17.10 12.30 38.00 10,400 kg 23,500 kg 1,915 3,330 15,240 2 × 48.9 kN/79.2 kN
F/A-18 Super Hornet United States 589 1995 1999–Present 18.31 13.62 46.5 14,552 kg 29,937 kg 1,915 3,330 15,000 2 × 62.3 kN/97.9 kN

Note the important information here - The smallest country by a fair margin (Taiwan's fighter does not count, along with Pakistans) is Sweden.
Your fighter jet would not be a good idea.
I wish we would drop it, but we wont -

[Theodarzna]

Well as long as the Turks don't engage in their usual lust for Armenian blood or Kurdish blood, let them get themselves killed.

[Deleted]

Actively working towards stability? Is that a joke? You have the west, Russia, and Iran all actively working to destabilize the country at the cost of its people. Then Turkey joins in the fray, and all of a sudden we have an issue? If anything, Turkey is far more welcomed than any other player in the region.

Russia and Iran are working with the local government. By definition they're working towards stability.
Stability in Syria is Assad, believe it or not.
Look at Libya and how that turned out

[Kuntantee]

I'm Swedish - We are the smallest country on earth to develop and build a 4th generation jet fighter - Want to know who the closes competitor is?
(hint you need + 50-55 million people or so) - So to be clear it can be done - But, we import the engine, the missiles are joint projects, and the Gripen has a continuous habit of eating all defence spending.
But sure, you could join the illustrious list:


Note the important information here - The smallest country by a fair margin (Taiwan's fighter does not count, along with Pakistans) is Sweden.
Your fighter jet would not be a good idea.
I wish we would drop it, but we wont -

Not sure what is your message. One thing is a fact: the industrial experience is priceless and will be the base for the 5th, 6th or other avionic projects. The most important thing is being able to educate your human resources through a institutional/industrial experience and knowledge base.

[Kellhound]

My point is you can't order LeoA7 since they are an upgrade of the LeaA6.

The word proposed is IN the article itself. Let me quote so you can see it yourself:



AKA the leo2A7 IT IS AN UPGRADED A6. AKA you cant order A7s. You need to have A6s first.

The 125 mm is an improved version of the 125 mm the T80 and it has range will over 4km.
Whats the range of the 120 of the M1A2?

Also, lol at your missile comment. You made me smile Kell, God bless dude and i was having a shitty day.

So you think you cant buy new 2A7s.... You need to let KM know that. Also, you should tell them they cant upgrade the 2A4 to 2A7 like they claim either.

If you had bothered to read more than two sentences of the article you would have seen the 20 were already delivered to the Heer. Kind of hard to be proposed when they are already fielded.

The 2A46 series 125mm gun dates back to the T-64. It has a listed range of between 3 and 4km. The 120mm/L44 has confirmed combat range of over 4km using older rounds.

If a small missile was so great, everyone would use them. As it is, it is a missile that can penetrate maybe 900mm RHAe going against a target with mostly 1300mm RHAe frontal armor, that can have its guidance jammed, instantly alerts its target of its location, and at maximum range, prevents the tank from engaging another target for over 17 seconds.