Lich King vs Broken Shores

[FelPlague]

Seriosly? If its required to fly into space, i bet it will.

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he can't even kill Arthas, because he is dead limbering in the twisted nether?

Yeah, this is indeed a fun read. Like, pretending as if Sargeras is at his full power.....when he is actually dead/destroyed.

planes can fly, so odiously they can fly in space bro

[Qualia]

he can't even kill Arthas, because he is dead limbering in the twisted nether?

Yeah, this is indeed a fun read. Like, pretending as if Sargeras is at his full power.....when he is actually dead/destroyed.

I missed this until I saw it being quoted by FelPlague above. I'd like to point out that in current lore, there is no indication that Sargeras himself - not his avatar - is dead / destroyed anymore.

The dead / destroyed part came from previous canon when Sargeras was stuck, "ceased to be" and lost his body when the Well of Eternity's portal collapsed (WoTA Triology). However, in Chronicle, that wasn't the case anymore, Sargeras was only ripped back into the Nether ("In that moment, Sargeras was ripped back into the Twisting Nether. Volatile energies whipped out from the collapsing Well of Eternity, hurling most of the Legion's ranks into the Nether as well"). He isn't dead any longer in current lore - at very least, he was fine enough to command the Dreadlords Eredars around when he gained a vision of Azeroth's eye shortly after WoTA ("Tome of Blighted Implements", part of Warlock artifact)

[steelballfc]

Amazing
what's next lich-king vs Argus !?

[FelPlague]

well british is banend for now because he made a thread talking about how demons are real, but media makes them out to be random and childish.... yeah...

[TheFirstOnes]

well british is banend for now because he made a thread talking about how demons are real, but media makes them out to be random and childish.... yeah...

....Ummm...lol. So, he went from a Lich king fanboy, to a legion welcomer? Ok....

[FelPlague]

....Ummm...lol. So, he went from a Lich king fanboy, to a legion welcomer? Ok....

no he was saying real life demons are real :P like litterally...

saying "demons are real just they are civilized and smart, but media portrays them as immature and constantly cursing, so we cant tell who are demons or not"

i presume he was doing it so he could start calling people who disagree with him demons

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post42007040

[TheFirstOnes]

no he was saying real life demons are real :P like litterally...

saying "demons are real just they are civilized and smart, but media portrays them as immature and constantly cursing, so we cant tell who are demons or not"

i presume he was doing it so he could start calling people who disagree with him demons

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post42007040

So....does that make me a demon? I'm a kind and gentle soul, but everyone thinks that i'm a cursing immature fool?

-____- My life has been a lie. /s

[Inukashi]

I wonder why noone wrote this before.. or didnt I just read it?

The Legion 'asked' Illidan to help in warcraft 3, stopping their failed undead king project and still failed at this. I think the Lich King is very, very, very strong when even the Legion fails at him.. but the Legion seems to fail at everything.

[Tyrannica]

planes can fly, so odiously they can fly in space bro

so a plane is a big floating cubus, bro?

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I missed this until I saw it being quoted by FelPlague above. I'd like to point out that in current lore, there is no indication that Sargeras himself - not his avatar - is dead / destroyed anymore.

The dead / destroyed part came from previous canon when Sargeras was stuck, "ceased to be" and lost his body when the Well of Eternity's portal collapsed (WoTA Triology). However, in Chronicle, that wasn't the case anymore, Sargeras was only ripped back into the Nether ("In that moment, Sargeras was ripped back into the Twisting Nether. Volatile energies whipped out from the collapsing Well of Eternity, hurling most of the Legion's ranks into the Nether as well"). He isn't dead any longer in current lore - at very least, he was fine enough to command the Dreadlords Eredars around when he gained a vision of Azeroth's eye shortly after WoTA ("Tome of Blighted Implements", part of Warlock artifact)

Thats way too far in the past, how about his connection with medivh? he was sent to the twisted nether in limbus after medivh died and the posession ended, got this reconned yet? Because if he is well and alive i would like to know when that happened? He probably wasn't fit enough for reign of chaos and send archimonde, or archimonde was on his own.

[Qualia]

Thats way too far in the past, how about his connection with medivh? he was sent to the twisted nether in limbus after medivh died and the posession ended, got this reconned yet? Because if he is well and alive i would like to know when that happened? He probably wasn't fit enough for reign of chaos and send archimonde, or archimonde was on his own.

That hasn't been addressed in Chronicle yet, so I think it's probably going to remain the same when they come to it. That wouldn't change things much, though, since that was just his soul which was put inside his avatar. It's one thing if he lost his body during WoTA (old lore), but if his body is still there (Chronicle), he'd just go back to his body, wouldn't he?

Archimonde / KJ's arrival during RoC, TBC and WoD doesn't necessarily mean Sargeras wasn't fit enough (it could be, but just a possibility) simply because it takes a lot more power to summon / open a portal for Sargeras than it does for Archimonde / KJ. In all cases, we defeated / pushed back Archi / KJ shortly after they were summoned, so it could be that the Legion just never managed to summon Sargeras. After all, even during pre-Chronicle WoTA, Sargeras wasn't summoned until the last part of the war (Book 3), way after Archimonde arrived.

[Deleted]

The Lich King is a plot hole. Obviously Bolvar has great power now and he wouldn't just sit around while a force bigger than his is about to invade and potentially be a threat to him.

Sure they still wouldn't have a way to close the portal, but if Bolvar was at the Broken Shore, Tirion, Varian and Vol'jin would be alive now.

I guess this is just one of those traps most story tellers fall into with creating characters, that become so powerful that they are detrimental to the story.

So yeah, the Lich King would have done a lot of damage on the Broken Shore, but there's just no proper way to fit that into the story. It wouldn't make sense for the Lich King to lose to an invasion force, you'd have to depower him somehow and that's getting pretty cheap now after doing it to Thrall.

[Qualia]

The Lich King is a plot hole. Obviously Bolvar has great power now and he wouldn't just sit around while a force bigger than his is about to invade and potentially be a threat to him.

Sure they still wouldn't have a way to close the portal, but if Bolvar was at the Broken Shore, Tirion, Varian and Vol'jin would be alive now.

I guess this is just one of those traps most story tellers fall into with creating characters, that become so powerful that they are detrimental to the story.

So yeah, the Lich King would have done a lot of damage on the Broken Shore, but there's just no proper way to fit that into the story. It wouldn't make sense for the Lich King to lose to an invasion force, you'd have to depower him somehow and that's getting pretty cheap now after doing it to Thrall.

Not really, his power might have helped, but it might have not. Just because he gained more power than his human self doesn't mean he can use all of them.

Remember, there was the question during Blizzcon 2011 about Bolvar - why he hasn't done a thing about the Scourge in Plaguelands and such. Blizzard basically said that it wasn't an easy transition for him (Bolvar), and he was still new at this Lich King thing. All he could do was reigning the Scourge in Northrend, he couldn't even control the one in Plagueland, and such.

What happened to Bolvar? We haven't seen him reign in the scourge at all. What's he doing on the Throne?
DK: It wasn't an easy transition for him. You gotta give him a little bit of time. He was kind of melted for a little while and then he was stuck in an ice cube. It's tough. That's a hard thing to go through.
CM: The Scourge and Cult of the Damned currently operating in Plaguelands are likely autonomous. The idea with Bolvar putting that helmet on, attempting to contain the Scourge... It's really about Northrend. "I just got on a boat yesterday and those quests are still happening." Ideally, if this thing had a clean timeline, which it does not... If we were making a movie... If we were writing it as a novel, with him on that Frozen Throne, the Scourge has gone to sleep in Northrend. But obviously it doesn't play out that way in the game. You can still go back and do all those quests.

But that is the intent of the fiction. That things aren't as bad as they were and he is not a monstrous Lich King. He's actually trying to keep everybody chill. There won't be any major crazy new Scourge attacks... for some time. But the Scourge operating in Plaguelands, it's more helpful to look at them as autonomous. Although, we haven't really dug out a lot of lore to substantiate that. "How are they autonomous?" "Who's driving these critters?" "Zombies don't have free will."
DK: Well certainly as Arthas' power waned, he lost control of the Forsaken. So we got a new Lich King getting his feet wet.
CM: Totally. (BlizzCon2011)

Maybe the same thing still hold - maybe he still suck at controlling the Scourge so he doesn't have spare power for anything else - that's why he asked the Ebon Blade for cooperation. It's not like he has a Ner'zhul teaching him the how-to like Arthas did (and Arthas still had to sleep for year(s)). Moreover, do we want Bolvar to be on the front line, anyway? If by any chance he dies, the scourge that can destroy Azeroth will be uncontrolled, free to rampage around or be taken over by the Nathrezim. Not really something good.

[Deleted]

Bolvar isn't exactly mortal anymore. Plus a lot of time has passed since he got "crowned" time isn't a factor here.

No point to defend Blizzard on this one. For now it's just a plot hole, unless it gets addressed later in Legion.

Also you people underestimate the power potential of the Lich King a lot. I'm not saying he's going to solo the Legion, but we all saw what Arthas was capable of. Saying a being like this wouldn't make a difference on the Broken Shore is just silly.

Or I could phrase it differently - none of the demons that invaded the broken shore were even close in power to Arthas. Arthas in his prime and his undead army would have crushed this invasion and Frostmourne would have taken the soul of Gul'dan.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Bolvar isn't exactly mortal anymore. Plus a lot of time has passed since he got "crowned" time isn't a factor here.

No point to defend Blizzard on this one. For now it's just a plot hole, unless it gets addressed later in Legion.

Also you people underestimate the power potential of the Lich King a lot. I'm not saying he's going to solo the Legion, but we all saw what Arthas was capable of. Saying a being like this wouldn't make a difference on the Broken Shore is just silly.

Or I could phrase it differently - none of the demons that invaded the broken shore were even close in power to Arthas. Arthas in his prime and his undead army would have crushed this invasion and Frostmourne would have taken the soul of Gul'dan.

Pretty bold statement there.

[Aquamonkey]

Bolvar isn't exactly mortal anymore. Plus a lot of time has passed since he got "crowned" time isn't a factor here.

No point to defend Blizzard on this one. For now it's just a plot hole, unless it gets addressed later in Legion.

Also you people underestimate the power potential of the Lich King a lot. I'm not saying he's going to solo the Legion, but we all saw what Arthas was capable of. Saying a being like this wouldn't make a difference on the Broken Shore is just silly.

Or I could phrase it differently - none of the demons that invaded the broken shore were even close in power to Arthas. Arthas in his prime and his undead army would have crushed this invasion and Frostmourne would have taken the soul of Gul'dan.

LK is nothing to the Legion.

In one possible future, he'd seen a successive Lich King rise from the Frozen Throne, even more terrible than Arthas or Ner'zhul, and sweep across the land with thousands of skeletal warriors in his wake. When the Legion returned, it was to a world already dead, and the demons laughed and played with the unnaturally risen draenei—all to spite Velen for the chase he'd led across the universe.
--Prophet's Lesson

[Deleted]

I never said the Lich King and his army can take on the whole Legion. What I said is that none of the demons on the broken shore were on the level of Arthas.

He would have marched thousand of all manner of undead there, he himself would have swooped down with his undead dragons and just wrecked Gul'dan.

After all Gul'dan is just a mortal and need I remind you what gathering of forces was needed to take down Arthas?

[Aquamonkey]

I never said the Lich King and his army can take on the whole Legion. What I said is that none of the demons on the broken shore were on the level of Arthas.

He would have marched thousand of all manner of undead there, he himself would have swooped down with his undead dragons and just wrecked Gul'dan.

After all Gul'dan is just a mortal and need I remind you what gathering of forces was needed to take down Arthas?

"When the Legion returned" like how they're doing now in this expansion... The vision describes how a full Scourgified Azeroth under an even worse LK than Arthas can't stop the Legion from coming.

[Qualia]

Bolvar isn't exactly mortal anymore. Plus a lot of time has passed since he got "crowned" time isn't a factor here.

No point to defend Blizzard on this one. For now it's just a plot hole, unless it gets addressed later in Legion.

Also you people underestimate the power potential of the Lich King a lot. I'm not saying he's going to solo the Legion, but we all saw what Arthas was capable of. Saying a being like this wouldn't make a difference on the Broken Shore is just silly.

Or I could phrase it differently - none of the demons that invaded the broken shore were even close in power to Arthas. Arthas in his prime and his undead army would have crushed this invasion and Frostmourne would have taken the soul of Gul'dan.

It's not really a plothole when it can be explained by the Lore, that's the issue. Just because you may not agree with the explanation doesn't make it a plothole.

Firstly, how does "isn't exactly mortal anymore" matter? It's true that he is no longer human, however, he can still be killed. Arthas was killed, how did you think that Bolvar could be an exception? Additionally, it's not "a lot of time". WoTLK events happened in years 27-28, Broken Shore battle happened in around year 33 (could be 32, Legion events started there). That's ~5-6 years only for Bolvar to learn from scratch. In comparison, Arthas went into his "sleep" as the Lich King (event during RoTLK / TFT) in year 22, and only woke up in year 27. That's also 5 years, with the help of Ner'zhul souls and memory. I don't think it's too forced to think that Bolvar, with no experience in necromancy beforehand, wouldn't be as good at controlling the scourge as Arthas (who has both Ner'zhul's memory and his own DK experience) after spending about the same amount of time.

And as Friendlyimmolation said - it's pretty bold to assume that Arthas in his prime could have crushed this invasion, or that "none of the demons that invaded Broken Shore were even close in power to Arthas". Remember how, in a vision of Velen, the Legion Eredars laughed and played with the dead army of a Lich King that is "even more terrible than Arthas and Ner'zhul" who succeeded in conquering Azeroth? If Arthas was so powerful, then how couldn't this "even more terrible" Lich King's army threaten the Legion more?
Edit: oh, Aquamonkey already gave the quote while I was typing this.

[Deleted]

What I said is that none of the demons on the broken shore were on the level of Arthas.

Don't know if it's a joke or serious...

Mal'Ganis anyone?

[Zyky]

really? because uther died under the same circumstances, long before arthas took the helm or the throne, and yet his soul was in frostmourne,

Right but the difference here is the Runeblade Frostmourne wasn't being wielded when he fought Mal'ganis