Stop making Horde and Orcs the bad guys

[Irian]

We witnessed in WoD that orcs were never truly "peaceful" in the sense that we know it, at least not before corruption. They're a race that enjoys conflict and war and because of this they fight against their nature constantly when attempting to forge a peaceful home. A look at the novels and stories involving Garrosh and Orgrimmar shows this perfectly; despite the fact that the orcs have their home they consider it weak and shameful that they live in poverty and believe the true answer is to conquer.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, OP. You seeing the orcs as simply the "bad guys" sums up exactly the same reason the Alliance despises them. Orcs crave conflict and seek it out, which makes them some of the greatest allies in war and some of the worst enemies. They're not bad guys for this, they still try to do good, but it leaves them at odds with other more peaceful races.

[Celestraza]

I agree with OP tbh, seems a lot of people here are just wrathbabies who only recently tuned into WoW.

The Horde during Warcraft 3, Vanilla/BC/WotLK had nowhere near the "bad guy" image as they have now.
They were just fighting for their right to survive and exist in Azeroth, nothing more.

For some reason the Alliance never get the "Bad" guy label even though they have produced quite some menacing evils such as Arthas as Lich King, Kel'Thuzad and his cult of the damned, Garithos and the "New Alliance", Fandral Staghelm (corrupted), Defias Brotherhood and VanCleef Family, the Eradar like Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, Daelin Proudmoore, Dark Iron Dwarves, Scarlet Crusade to name some that come to mind.

But for some reason they don't seem to leave a mark behind to think that the Alliance is worth destroying or are "evil". Unlike for example Garrosh and the Betrayal of the Undercity which apparantly seems to nearly warrant the full destruction or dismanteling of the Horde (and tbh there really is no strength in the Horde left after SoO). Kinda tired of this one-sided approach of Blizzard lately. It is time we raid Stormwind or Darnassus to remove some traitorous faction that has become a world threat and see the Alliance be crippled for a change.

[Jewsco]

Why do you say that? If I was in charge, this whole mess would have likely been avoided since I would have regrouped on-site before engaging Gul'dan, because of several obvious red flags, as I said.

So, you tell me, instead of threatening and insulting me. Why would I not be a good commander?

You seem to be missing the whole point of it. It was suppose to show us how outmanned we truely are against the legion and how hard this fight will be for the new expansion. Both sides were doomed to fail in that scenario. If I have any complaint it would be how slyvanas and the horde retreated without telling thier alliance allies they were doing so. That is the fail in the scenario. Making a tatiacal retreat happens a lot in war fare. Live to fight another day. Heck George Washington for America's independence barely won any battle but what he was great at was retreating to fight another day. He knew dragging the fight on would drain England.

[Combatbutler]

You seem to be missing the whole point of it. It was suppose to show us how outmanned we truely are against the legion and how hard this fight will be for the new expansion. Both sides were doomed to fail in that scenario. If I have any complaint it would be how slyvanas and the horde retreated without telling thier alliance allies they were doing so. That is the fail in the scenario. Making a tatiacal retreat happens a lot in war fare. Live to fight another day. Heck George Washington for America's independence barely won any battle but what he was great at was retreating to fight another day. He knew dragging the fight on would drain England.

The Alliance hears the signal for retreat, the only thing they don't know is why it is sounded, which could have been clarified, if the legion hadn't meddled with the Alliance leadership.

[Combatbutler]

Given how bombarded the Horde were with Legion forces and shape ships, I'd say clarification wasn't really possible. They needed to get outta there quickly, which they did.

I meant after everyone had retreated and were in their respective capitals, to plan their next move. But this doesn't happen because of false intel.

[Jewsco]

Given how bombarded the Horde were with Legion forces and shape ships, I'd say clarification wasn't really possible. They needed to get outta there quickly, which they did.

If it was a true battle they would of found a way to get some message to thier ally. We all know why it was done like that right? To keep a little horde vs. alliance crap in the game. Because as this game goes on it makes less and less sense for it so they have to find a way to get it in there.

[xuros]

Orc called Eitrigg saved Tirion Fordring life. And Thrall saved the whole Azeroth. etc

Fuck Thrall. He sat back while I killed everything and shot his little light after the deeds were done.

[Combatbutler]

If it was a true battle they would of found a way to get some message to thier ally. We all know why it was done like that right? To keep a little horde vs. alliance crap in the game. Because as this game goes on it makes less and less sense for it so they have to find a way to get it in there.

There was no connection by land and the horde got overwhelmed, the moment the legion sprung its trap, the Alliance heard the horn , which at this point was all they needed to get the hell out of there, which they did, until Gul'dan sprung phase two of the trap. Any misunderstanding could have been cleared once both armies were actually save.

I'm sure she could have... like, send a scot to deliver the message, though, I think you're right about Blizzard wanting the tension between the factions.

There was no land connection, they were divided by a fel pool and the horde broke almost instantly.

[Jewsco]

There was no connection by land and the horde got overwhelmed, the moment the legion sprung its trap, the Alliance heard the horn , which at this point was all they needed to get the hell out of there, which they did, until Gul'dan sprung phase two of the trap. Any misunderstanding could have been cleared once both armies were actually save.



There was no land connection, they were divided by a fel pool and the horde broke almost instantly.

As if slyvanas doesn't have any flying troops at her disposal like those valkrys that came down and rescued the horde or her archers couldn't shoot down a message on one of thier arrows. Come on if she wanted to or more truthfully if blizz wanted her to have done it she could of. It clearly was done that way to keep some faction tension present. Or no mages could blink, slow fall or teleport either right?

[DSRilk]

It's victory or death and in order to obtain victory you have to retreat sometimes. The Horde merely chose victory over death.

Victory or death! Or running away in hopes that maybe victory might come later, but... Victory or DEATH!

Seriously though, if running away "for potential future victory" is what they mean by Victory, then when is the Death part ever in play? Wouldn't it be more accurately depicted as "Victory or They Kill Me Before I Can Run Away"? Because that's the only way death ever comes into play in the "you can flee if things aren't going your way" scenario you're creating. Don't get me wrong, to me fleeing in the face of overwhelming odds is logical, but then again, I don't go around shouting victory or death...

Perhaps key to this whole thing, however, is that the Horde is not all that unified in its methodology. It wasn't an orc sounding the retreat.

[Combatbutler]

As if slyvanas doesn't have any flying troops at her disposal like those valkrys that came down and rescued the horde or her archers couldn't shoot down a message on one of thier arrows. Come on if she wanted to or more truthfully if blizz wanted her to have done it she could of. It clearly was done that way to keep some faction tension present. Or no mages could blink, slow fall or teleport either right?

To tell the truth it simply isn't necessary to tell them why the retreat was sounded, the important part is that everyone gets the message that a retreat was sounded. Anything else is just a bonus after everyone got their asses out of there and the why can be discussed later.

[Jewsco]

To tell the truth it simply isn't necessary to tell them why the retreat was sounded, the important part is that everyone gets the message that a retreat was sounded. Anything else is just a bonus after everyone got their asses out of there and the why can be discussed later.

True but now in the hordes and alliance biggest time of need when they need to work together or possibly die thier is dissention and distrust that can only hurt them. Heck just let the alliance know that if that horn is blown it means retreat. Alliance heard it but they didn't know what it meant till they saw them retreat. That alone would of been some pretty key info.

[Combatbutler]

True but now in the hordes and alliance biggest time of need when they need to work together or possibly die thier is dissention and distrust that can only hurt them. Heck just let the alliance know that if that horn is blown it means retreat. Alliance heard it but they didn't know what it meant till they saw them retreat. That alone would of been some pretty key info.

They knew what the horn meant, the only reason it gets so out of hand is because the legion has already infiltrated Si7, which then feeds them false info. Varian immediately recognized it, but was dumbfounded why, which is something that could have been explained once everyone was safe, the important part was to get out of there, which is what they promptly do, but Gul'dan is prepared for that.

[Khorneflake]

The only good Orc is a dead Orc.

To the fight the Orc, we must understand the Orc... we can ill afford another warlords of draenor.

[Jotaux]

Victory or death! Or running away in hopes that maybe victory might come later, but... Victory or DEATH!

Seriously though, if running away "for potential future victory" is what they mean by Victory, then when is the Death part ever in play? Wouldn't it be more accurately depicted as "Victory or They Kill Me Before I Can Run Away"? Because that's the only way death ever comes into play in the "you can flee if things aren't going your way" scenario you're creating. Don't get me wrong, to me fleeing in the face of overwhelming odds is logical, but then again, I don't go around shouting victory or death...

Perhaps key to this whole thing, however, is that the Horde is not all that unified in its methodology. It wasn't an orc sounding the retreat.

Well, you keep fighting till you lose the war. Using proper battle techniques and knowing when to retreat. Obviously if you lose the war and you never surrendered you are going to die.

[Dormie]

Well, Horde/Orcs are the bad guys, soooo...

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with OP tbh, seems a lot of people here are just wrathbabies who only recently tuned into WoW.

The Horde during Warcraft 3, Vanilla/BC/WotLK had nowhere near the "bad guy" image as they have now.
They were just fighting for their right to survive and exist in Azeroth, nothing more.

lol, the RIGHT to survive in Azeroth? Remind me again what their reasons for coming to Azeroth were and what they did when they got there. Tbh Horde is lucky the Alliance hasn't decided to group up and wipe them all off of Azeroth.

[Jewsco]

They knew what the horn meant, the only reason it gets so out of hand is because the legion has already infiltrated Si7, which then feeds them false info. Varian immediately recognized it, but was dumbfounded why, which is something that could have been explained once everyone was safe, the important part was to get out of there, which is what they promptly do, but Gul'dan is prepared for that.

Did he? Him and genn looked up in shock when they saw them retreat and even said she wouldn't

[Jotaux]

lol, the RIGHT to survive in Azeroth? Remind me again what their reasons for coming to Azeroth were and what they did when they got there. Tbh Horde is lucky the Alliance hasn't decided to group up and wipe them all off of Azeroth.

The only non native race of the horde are the orcs. Just like the Draenei are not native to Azeroth for the Alliance. If anything the Trolls have the greatest land claim and all the land was stolen from them.

[Combatbutler]

Did he? Him and genn looked up in shock when they saw them retreat and even said she wouldn't

Yes he was shocked by the fact that they would retreat, because he doesn't know why, but he did know what the horn meant. Hw was certain they would win this a few moments before after all.

[Frosteye]

Keep in mind that historically Orcs have ALWAYS been the bad guys. In WC1 / WC2 the Orcs invaded Azeroth and instead of attempting to peacefully co-exist, they invaded the Human Kingdoms causing devastation.

The Humans were just enjoying themselves peacefully, and the Orcs were the ones who came and ruined that.


Lately however, Blizzard wants everyone to be a special snowflake, and the thought of having one faction be "Bad" is just inconceivable. So we get all of these storylines that paint the Horde as the good guys, and Alliance/Horde cooperation. Ehhh no thanks.

This is WARcraft, not PEACEcraft... The WAR part was always between the Orcs & Humans too. Considering that the Horde were the initial aggressors, that would make them the bad guys.