Jaina's Future

[Deleted]

Forsaken coexists with the Argent Crusade and the Thrall's new Horde.
Orc coexists with Tauren, Troll to form the new Horde. And new Horde cooperate with Alliance on numerical occasions.

It is true that Forsaken wants more territory and dead people. Orcs also wants more territory and more trees to cut. And Alliance also wants to gain more territory and resources or do some "righteous vengeance".

There will be war, sometimes terrible, with races/nations fall into ashes. But there will also be peace time between wars. Same as all the nations in the world.

The only exception is Garrosh, who truly wanted and tried to kill everything other than Orc. But he was overthrown.

To coexist does not always imply peaceful friendship.

Can you explain when the Alliance ever fought for new territory or ressources? They even gave Azshara officially to the Horde without demanding new territory or even reparation after the Siege of Orgrimmar. What the Alliance want is Justice for their people and to hold the territory that already belongs to them. Ashenvale is 100% proberty of the Night Elves, Gilneas belongs to the Gilneans. It was always the Horde that wanted to conquer and attacked other races. The Forsaken always fought against the Humans, so the Humans have the right to destroy them if they don't stop. On the other Hand, the Alliance never really invaded Tirisfal.

[Aucald]

Can you explain when the Alliance ever fought for new territory or ressources? They even gave Azshara officially to the Horde without demanding new territory or even reparation after the Siege of Orgrimmar. What the Alliance want is Justice for their people and to hold the territory that already belongs to them. Ashenvale is 100% proberty of the Night Elves, Gilneas belongs to the Gilneans. It was always the Horde that wanted to conquer and attacked other races. The Forsaken always fought against the Humans, so the Humans have the right to destroy them if they don't stop. On the other Hand, the Alliance never really invaded Tirisfal.

Bael Modan begs to differ, and the Bael'dun dig-site directly in Mulgore.

[Deleted]

Bael Modan begs to differ, and the Bael'dun dig-site directly in Mulgore.

And that makes the Alliance as Bad as the Horde? That would mean that in your morality, the allies were as bad as the axis powers in WW2 because both did evil stuff, regardless if the axis powers did by far more evil stuff and worse evil stuff.

[Aucald]

And that makes the Alliance as Bad as the Horde? That would mean that in your morality, the allies were as bad as the axis powers in WW2 because both did evil stuff, regardless if the axis powers did by far more evil stuff and worse evil stuff.

It answers your first question - I wasn't stating matters in terms of scale or relative moral worth, simply that the Alliance wasn't as blameless or virtuous as you seem to believe. They have made aggressive moves for territory and resources, and against an indigenous Horde race with whom they historically had no quarrel. I agree the Horde is, in general, more aggressive than the Alliance as regards territory - but's not a 0:1 ratio, either.

[Deleted]

It answers your first question - I wasn't stating matters in terms of scale or relative moral worth, simply that the Alliance wasn't as blameless or virtuous as you seem to believe. They have made aggressive moves for territory and resources, and against an indigenous Horde race with whom they historically had no quarrel. I agree the Horde is, in general, more aggressive than the Alliance as regards territory - but's not a 0:1 ratio, either.

Yeah, but even in this case, the Dwarfs don't wanted to conquer land, they wanted to study. They didn't stole something important from the Tauren, something the Tauren need to live, they just didn't cared for some primitive shamanistic cult.

[Deleted]

The main difference between our viewpoints is you consider their retreat cowardice, and others such as myself don't - they were defeated, had they stayed the Horde would be no more, and so they retreated to reorganize to live to fight another day.

Actually that's not entirely true. Yes, of course I did let that shine through in my initial point but it was my intention. It was pretty clear that, that battle had to be "lost". What really bugs me is the way it was written. The conflict is pretty forced and I don't actually think any alliance player would be mad if you actually saw what was happening on the horde side but there was no way to. From the impression the cinematic offers on the alliance side, the alliance either isn't able to see the plateau after switching to the ship or, one could assume, the horde was already gone with their ships and Valkyries. Why neither party tried to send some kind of diplomat is beyond me.

I don't think it's unreasonable that the horde fell back. Neither I think that the losses were unjustified either but what really irks me, is that the cinematic just makes Sylvanas look like she ran without any thought for the other side. In a stark contrast you have the friendly banter during the, well not so friendly, kill of Tirion. It's a really cool idea to have two raids that are running in parallel. It could've been the start for some real nice cooperation for at least this expansion. It could've lead to some better understanding for the races among each other but as it turns out, especially with what's missing from the alliance side, it's just a setup to get us at each others throats. Oh and that that bugged throne room discussion is a nightmare ... I'm still not sure I actually got all of what's going on there...

Off-Topic:

Let's not forget that Varian's goal with the Battle of the Undercity was to steal Lordaeron for the Alliance.

Does anyone know why they removed such a cool quest?

[Aucald]

Yeah, but even in this case, the Dwarfs don't wanted to conquer land, they wanted to study. They didn't stole something important from the Tauren, something the Tauren need to live, they just didn't cared for some primitive shamanistic cult.

The Bael Modan Dwarves destroyed Stonespire village, and believe that anything Titan-related automatically bestows on them the rights to do so - that's an aggressor component if ever there was one. The Tauren are many things (among those generally peaceful, wise, and deeply spiritual), but they're not primitive; they accomplish by unity with nature and spirituality what the Dwarves do with machinery and metal.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually that's not entirely true. Yes, of course I did let that shine through in my initial point but it was my intention. It was pretty clear that, that battle had to be "lost". What really bugs me is the way it was written. The conflict is pretty forced and I don't actually think any alliance player would be mad if you actually saw what was happening on the horde side but there was no way to. From the impression the cinematic offers on the alliance side, the alliance either isn't able to see the plateau after switching to the ship or, one could assume, the horde was already gone with their ships and Valkyries. Why neither party tried to send some kind of diplomat is beyond me.

I don't think it's unreasonable that the horde fell back. Neither I think that the losses were unjustified either but what really irks me, is that the cinematic just makes Sylvanas look like she ran without any thought for the other side. In a stark contrast you have the friendly banter during the, well not so friendly, kill of Tirion. It's a really cool idea to have two raids that are running in parallel. It could've been the start for some real nice cooperation for at least this expansion. It could've lead to some better understanding for the races among each other but as it turns out, especially with what's missing from the alliance side, it's just a setup to get us at each others throats. Oh and that that bugged throne room discussion is a nightmare ... I'm still not sure I actually got all of what's going on there...

I agree it's not very well presented in the scenario and cinematic, and it left a bad taste in my mouth as a primarily Horde player, but I get what was trying to be conveyed I believe. As for the throne room discussion I'm not sure I follow you - you mean the cinematic that follows where Vol'jin expires from his wound and Sylvanas vows to avenge him? Or do you mean the Alliance version of the same?

[Deleted]

The alliance version with dialogues being played in triple (at least for me, in addition async), various pets from hunters, warlocks and battle pets cluttering up any view you might have on anything etc.

It's not really relevant right now ... just something that crossed my mind which I also really disliked about the pre-event quests. I'm not sure about the horde side, I only know there is a second cinematic for them.

[Deleted]

Humans reproducing is also against nature.
That's because humans in Warcraft are an unnatural race created by a curse from the Old Gods.
Just as unnatural is the fire magic that humans used to destroy the Trolls, it blocked the natural regeneration of this natural race.

Only because they look closer to something you are used to from reality doesn't mean they are natural nor does it mean their magic is any less worse than what the Forsaken use.

And no.
If you want to find a cure for the Curse of Undead then we also need to find a cure for the Curse of Flesh.

I think their is a difference between a Degeneration that made a Race that showed by far more sense of empathy, justice and goodness then their ancestors who follow the Lichking or the Legion most of the times and some constructs made of darkest and unnatural energy (After all, Necromancy is the opposite of nature) who only feel dark emotions most of the times and want to destroy everything that lives (I can quote that part from Chronicles, it's Canon that most Undeads want to destroy live).

[Friendlyimmolation]

I can quote that part from Chronicles, it's Canon that most Undeads want to destroy live

If they are mindless undead, We do see the desire to wipe out all the living from some Forsaken, but we also see Forsaken who don't show any inclination. But there are members of every race that are insane sooo.

[Jotaux]

The only character that can match her contribution to peace between the Alliance and Horde is Thrall(note; Thrall's Orgrimmar wasn't manabombed by the humans, making his status of a "diplomat" much easier to uphold). At one point every character has enough of being messed around with.

The difference is Thrall saved Orgrimmar from Jaina and still forgave her for her plan to wipe them out.

[Mehrunes]

I think Sylvanas will join the burning Legion if they offer her immortality. After all, she's a construct made by a former servant of the Legion.

So the former servant of a former servant of Legion is supposed to like the Legion, why? She hated the Scourge and Legion by proxy. Not to mention that Varimathras betrayed her.

She might have fought the Scourge and she might hate the Burning Legion, but her actions - even though they have a different purpose - are as unholy and against nature as much as the Lich King's were.

Raising the dead is still what it is - raising the dead; spreading the plague is still what it is - spreading the plague. Going for victory and her own survival using any means necessary, such as destroying life and nature, puts her into the same boat that Arthas puddled on during and after the evens of Stratholme.

And how is that relevant to whether or not would she join the Legion? And oh noes, destroying life in war? Using plague, i.e. a weapon? Destroying nature? I guess Alliance's way of warfare is nature friendly. Gluten free bombs for everyone. And no one gives a shit about Ebon Blade raising the dead even though they create mindless minions. Somehow it's only Forsaken that are the devil for doing it.

But the Horde Fanboys tend to cry about how evil the Alliance was with the internment camps and I just wanted to point out: The Forsaken are to blame for them. They are the legitimate successor state of Lordaeron in the eyes of the Horde.

Last I checked the Forsaken rebelled against the last ruling Menethil and overthrew him.

And Thrall never made a excuse towards the people of Stormwind for all the things his people did with them. He never worked towards peace, he accepted the Forsaken in the Horde, knowing that the Humans wouldn't like that. He never made a compromise were his people had to do something for peace. In his eyes, it was always the responsibility of the Alliance to make the Horde happy for peace, that was his view on diplomacy. Once the Alliance didn't made the Horde happy anymore, war as okay and Garrosh was made Warchief.

Lol, Thrall never worked towards peace. I guess Theramore peace talks didn't happen then. Horde vowing to trade specific resources the Alliance also didn't happen, because Thrall totes never made a compromise where his people had to do something for peace. He also didn't settle his people in a goddamn desert as atonement for Orcs. And you may need to check your chronology. First Garrosh was made Warchief and only then was war okay. And why was war okay? Because it was the Alliance that broke the trade treaties that totally didn't happen. And it was Jaina who attacked first.

And since when does the Horde need to ask the Alliance if they can accept new members? The humans wouldn't like that? Whoopty doo. They had a chance to work with the Forsaken, Sylvanas sent envoys to them as well. Does the Alliance need to ask permission too? Because I don't recall them doing so when they readmitted Gilneas even though the Horde certainly wouldn't like that given how they were at war with Gilneas at the time.

Thrall is showing hypocrisy indeed. For instance, he named the capital city of the orcs/Horde after Orgrim Doomhammer, a member of the first Horde and a warchief that basically continued the initial onslaught on Azeroth by further enlisting the aid of ogres and trolls. The fortress from which the Horde leader reigns is named after Grom Hellscream, the invader of Ashenvale, slayer of Cenarius and bloodthirsty hater of the Alliance, who did the same with or without drinking demonic blood. It was Jaina's forces of the Eastern Kingdoms' survivors that established settlements in Kalimdor first, not the orcs(as is witnessed during the Warcraft III campaign missions where Thrall and his orcs wander through a barren Kalimdor, only to reach the foothold of a mountainous area that had well-fortified and established human towns).

Thrall named cities or buildings after his personal friends, who helped him liberate his people from internment camps and in Grom's case, from the blood curse? What a hypocrite. Also, Grom didn't invade shit in Ashenvale. The Warsong were cutting trees and Night Elves attacked without warning. Then Cenarius attacked them for defending themselves and ignored their explanations that they aren't serving demons. And when has Grom not under the influence of the demon blood acted the same way as Grom under the influence of it?

The only thing that changed after the admission of the undead into the Horde is that they found a way to "procreate", as in raise more undead and that they became more efficient at destroying nature. Basically, they're doing everything opposite as to what was given as the reason for their admission. Now the undead leader became the leader of all the Horde, despite the fact that almost every race within the Horde is spiritually alligned against the unliving.

I can't recall anything about nature being said when the Forsaken were admitted to the Horde, but that's just me. And since when is almost every race within the Horde "spiritually aligned against the unliving"?

Jaruk Bloodfyre on the other hand, someone I would consider a true hero because he never joint the Horde and protected a Draenei child, is forgotten. He who was one of the few proofs in orcish history that the Orcs can be good and honorable.

And the Horde is supposed to be aware of him how?

We know what he did with one Orc. And I don't blame Thrall for freeing his people. I blame him for playing the victim when the Humans don't forget so easily. I blaim him for calling Doomhammer, one of the biggest Monsters that ever walked upon Azeroth, a hero. Doomhammer had no honor, he had nothing good inside him. He followed the Horde all the time by his free will, he has even proven himself a failure as a Warrior, as he let his Warlocks defile the corpses of the Knights of Stormwind, Warriors who died defending their home, to forge the first Death Knights. And I don't see that much of a difference between new and old Horde. The new Horde has still the same symbols and the same political system, it's first Leader Thrall is even a direct successor of the Leader of the so called "old Horde", Doomhammer. You can't just take the same system and call it new without changing a shit. The Horde is the Horde and the Orcs should learn to take responsibility for their actions. Instead of honoring Monsters, they should learn to honor their victims and those who opposed the "old" Horde, because those were true Heroes.

Perspective, how does it work? Also, what the hell does allowing the creation of the Death Knights have to do with what kind of warrior Doomhammer was?

Yeah, but the Forsaken claim Lordaeron for themselves and wanted to be treated as the true owners and successors of Lordaeron. That means, every guilts of the old nations goes to them. Just like the Federal Republic of Germany has a new political system, a new constitution but still had to pay the reparations for World War One and Two, Wars fought by the German Empire. Either the Humans are to blame for the Internment Camps, that would mean that the humanity is the true successor and owner of Lordaeron or the Forsaken are to blame. If the Humans were to play, that would mean that the humans had the freedom to legitimately start a war whenever they want because the Horde accepts humanity claim over Lordaeron but still occupies it.

Thats how Nations work. You can't just say "Yeah, I want that land but I want to have nothing to do with it's debts and history". If it were so easy, any Nation with debts could just dissolve their nation and found a new one.

Actually, nations defaulted tons of times throughout history. And once more, the Forsaken waged civil war. Things are different during civil wars.

The Forsaken already started their war against humanity. Sylvanas did it immediatly, by killing Garithos.

How is killing one asshole starting a war against humanity? Especially when humanity doesn't even know about it.

No, they don't have that right to exist if they don't want to coexist with the rest of Azeroth.

Ever since they kicked the Alliance out of their lands they coexist just fine.

They didn't call their retreat (in advance). Calling your retreat (in advance) is different from a "We're out of here, so long suckers!"-kind of good bye they gave the alliance from an alliance perspective. You can sugarcoat it all you want. You can argue that it was obvious they couldn't win. You can tell yourself they never had an alliance (between both factions for this endeavour) and just some kind of wonky cooperation. You can argue all that but they never gave the alliance a clear sign they will be retreating. The only thing they did was call their own retreat and that it would be right now, this instance. Not a moment later or sooner. This is different from any kind of fair warning. They only did it to save their own hides. Yes the alliance might have had a similar reaction but we will never know. Right now we just know the Horde ran home (pardon the language) as they were shitting their pants.

They called retreat pretty much immediately after Legion's spaceships warped in and bombarded the shit out of them. Unless you request that the Horde uses precognition during war or at least retreats, they wouldn't have called the retreat earlier than they did. And you can argue all you want, but sounding the horn was a clear sign they will be retreating and somehow the Alliance understood it just fine.

And of course it's not the way the story will go. I'm just remembering the "fist pumping alliance moment in the expansion (MoP)" and how it didn't have any meaning at all and never will have any meaning. Short of showing us (with what came shortly before SoO) that an "alliance fist pumping moment" is probably getting insulted by a troll that needs our help.

So the Purge of Dalaran and Jaina rejoining the Alliance didn't happen?

Can you explain when the Alliance ever fought for new territory or ressources? They even gave Azshara officially to the Horde without demanding new territory or even reparation after the Siege of Orgrimmar. What the Alliance want is Justice for their people and to hold the territory that already belongs to them. Ashenvale is 100% proberty of the Night Elves, Gilneas belongs to the Gilneans. It was always the Horde that wanted to conquer and attacked other races. The Forsaken always fought against the Humans, so the Humans have the right to destroy them if they don't stop. On the other Hand, the Alliance never really invaded Tirisfal.

And the Horde withdrew from Ashenvale, what's your point. As for Gilneas, it was abandoned by Gilneans so they own jack shit. Should have not abandoned it if they wanted it to still belong to them. Also, Alliance never invaded Tirisfal? Riveting tale. When did Undercity teleport out of Tirisfal then? Because the Alliance sure did invade it, the capital city of a Horde race, and declared war against the Horde in there. And not only did the Forsaken mostly fight against neutral humans, as far as the Alliance ones are concerned, they kinda fought back. It takes more than one party for there to be a fight. Whoopty doo, the Forsaken have the right to destroy humans. Also, since you're finally admitting that the Forsaken created a successor state of Lordaeron because it's convenient for you today (I recall you arguing against it months ago), then the Alliance outposts were part of what Forsaken claimed and were infringing on their territory. As for Alliance fighting for new territory or resources, on top of what Aucald mentioned, Alterac Valley and Amber Mill say hi. Or Northwatch. Or, you know, almost all human kingdoms.

And that makes the Alliance as Bad as the Horde? That would mean that in your morality, the allies were as bad as the axis powers in WW2 because both did evil stuff, regardless if the axis powers did by far more evil stuff and worse evil stuff.

Move them goalposts some more.

Actually that's not entirely true. Yes, of course I did let that shine through in my initial point but it was my intention. It was pretty clear that, that battle had to be "lost". What really bugs me is the way it was written. The conflict is pretty forced and I don't actually think any alliance player would be mad if you actually saw what was happening on the horde side but there was no way to. From the impression the cinematic offers on the alliance side, the alliance either isn't able to see the plateau after switching to the ship or, one could assume, the horde was already gone with their ships and Valkyries. Why neither party tried to send some kind of diplomat is beyond me.

You actually do see what is happening on the Horde side. The spaceships warping in and the following bombardment is visible from Alliance position. And since the gunship arrived shortly after, it had great aerial view. And even in case of the cinematic itself, you see an army of Felguards arriving where the Dark Rangers were seconds after they left. And not only are archers in the back generally speaking, the Dark Rangers weren't even part of the same front as the rest of the Horde. So for the demons to reach those back positions so quickly (and they were marching, not running) it's obvious the Horde formation had to be broken even before they called for retreat.

Off-Topic:

Does anyone know why they removed such a cool quest?

Revamp of Orgrimmar.

[KrazyK923]

Awsome when ppl just waste their time passing by to say useless stuff

It's because Jaina is one of the, what, 3 characters to ever express an anti-Horde sentiment. So therefore she's just insane. Even when her reasons for hating the Horde actually make sense (Aside from the Broken Shore), unlike Garrosh who was just "RAWR HATE ALLIANCE CUZ DADDY FOUGHT DEM HOOMANS!"

The answer is that after she vacated her position as leader of the Kirin Tor, she hasn't been seen yet.

[Shibito]

Seriously this type of Jaina hatred makes me very uncomfortable that the femtrolls actually do have a point that there are a lot of misogynists in the gaming community
I still don't like Jaina, she's lost it. The idea that while the Legion is invading we should focus on killing the Horde is batshit retarded. We should be reserved and expect them not to honor any wartime commitments sure, but not actively pursue them instead of the Legion. That scene with Anduin was comic book villain material.
Still I feel for the girl. Dadgar takes her job before she even has time to portal off and her boyfriend takes the other spot in the council as soon as she quits.

What I expect is a situation were a Horde leader is on spot to actually save the world and Jaina takes a potshot and kills them.

Lol relax y so serious

[Deleted]

It's because Jaina is one of the, what, 3 characters to ever express an anti-Horde sentiment. So therefore she's just insane. Even when her reasons for hating the Horde actually make sense (Aside from the Broken Shore), unlike Garrosh who was just "RAWR HATE ALLIANCE CUZ DADDY FOUGHT DEM HOOMANS!"

The answer is that after she vacated her position as leader of the Kirin Tor, she hasn't been seen yet.

Or Sylvanas who is so Anti-Human because of...hmm, if we think about it, the first human she met as an Undead trusted her, worked with her and was betrayed by her...

[Logwyn]

Jaina is dead or imprisoned..... This "Jaina" is a dread lord in disguise!

[Friendlyimmolation]

Or Sylvanas who is so Anti-Human because of...hmm, if we think about it, the first human she met as an Undead trusted her, worked with her and was betrayed by her...

Garithos never trusted her, he just thought he could beat the Forsaken if it came to blows.

"now get out of my city before"

"kill him too"

Sylvanas didn't kill him because he was a human, she killed him because he was an ass. And The Forsaken also wanted lordaeron.

[Mehrunes]

Or Sylvanas who is so Anti-Human because of...hmm, if we think about it, the first human she met as an Undead trusted her, worked with her and was betrayed by her...

The hmm's name was Arthas.

[Deleted]

The first human (Which Garithos actually isn't, but okay) she met as an Undead blackmailed her into giving up Lordaeron or else he wouldn't stop the Legion from taking over Azeroth.

Why is this about Sylvanas now?
And can I say that I REALLY didn't miss those two months you were absent, threads were almost on-topic.

As far as I remember Sylvanas offered and primised Lordaeron to the Humans.

[Friendlyimmolation]

As far as I remember Sylvanas offered and primised Lordaeron to the Humans.

Who the fuck cares? She promised it to Garithos and then killed him. That isn't equal to war on humans.