Why is balancing apparently so difficult?

[Snivena]

This is what I don't understand about forum posting. The last 3 sentences are lovely, succinct, and of course completely correct. But why did we need the first 3 sentences? Someone can be wrong--and definitely they can be naive--without being stupid.

It's one thing to be ignorant. It's another thing to be ignorant, arrogant and belligerent. Posting on a public forum as though you know more about game design than highly skilled people who have been in the industry for decades is downright cowardly, silly and stupid. If OP is a simplistically brilliant as he or she claims then do something functional with this incredible knowledge other than whining on a forum. Hint: He or she isn't anything but an ignorant know-it-all who knows nothing at all.

[Swag]

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, most people are probably misdiagnosing differences in say DPS as spec/class, when its most likely the person at the keyboard. I found this interesting http://blizzardwatch.com/2016/07/19/...can-play-spec/

[lappee]

It should still be relatively easy to spot where the discrepancy comes from. Right now it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that crit is amazing for fire mages, since it both provides instant cast pyroblasts for them, they gain 10% more of it, and it "activates" their mastery, as well as stacking up to be 25% more valuable if they can crit more times in a row.

For some cases it is, others not so much. Fire mages prefering crit is nothing new and its not a problem itself, its just how the class fantasy works. Balancing it so that they're competitive despite all the mechanics is hard.

I'm not saying perfect balance should be easy, but most people don't expect perfect balance. We just want something pretty close to it, and that honestly isn't unreasonable. It isn't rocket science.

It IS rocket science.

We all (should) know the only way to actually achieve balance is to make just one class and thats all. Any additional mechanic will result in a difference, you can still achieve balance in a specific scenario but that one single scenario doesnt matter in the end.
This is why specs shine in different situations, like your Destro Warlock shines in two target situations.

[WintersLegion]

Different specs scale differently. Even if they made no changes at all, the dps rankings at 850 ilvl likely won't be even close to the same as at 950 ilvl. So, if a spec performs really well at higher ilvls but poorly at low ilvls and gets nerfed with a flat % decrease across the board, it would make it even worse at lower ilvls. Where as nerfing certain abilities or changing a mechanic may make it scale less dramatically but also mostly nerf the spec at just higher ilvls.

Yep I remember the level 85 I think it was Paladin soloing Elegon even though he was 5 levels below the max and Elegon was current content because Mastery scaled so well at his level.

[Varitok]

Rest in peace Frost DK 2008-2016

[Deathquoi]

So, we all know how it goes, every single time Blizzard changes something about the classes, we end up with wildly different dps numbers across all classes, with a lot of people claiming that class x is underpowered, class y is overpowered, and so on and so forth. Then it takes Blizzard some time (sometimes a long time) and several ballance passes to change things, only to end up with wildly different numbers again. But why is that? Lets take the following example:

We are looking at classes 1,2,3,4, and 5. For the sake of this example, they are all wearing the best possible gear available, and are played by equally skilled players. So lets assume that classes 1,2,3, and 4 are dealing the exact same amount of damage (+/- 1%, depending on crit luck and proccs). Along comes class 5, and does 13% more damage than the other 4. So you take class 5, and reduce the damage output of every single damage ability they have by 13%. Class 5 is now doing the same amount of dps as 1,2,3, and 4. Balance achieved.

Likewise , if class 5 did 13% less damage than the others, you would buff all of their abilities by 13%. I mean, it really is that simple, or is it not? I dont know squat about game development, so someone please enlighten me as to why this is apparently not the best way to go about this.

It really isn't that simple. There's stat scaling and non-linear variables to be considered across 12 different classes and 36 different specs.

Say 2 different specs each have one stat that benefits them the most. One of those classes gets 1.5x the benefit that the other class does from its preferred stat. You set both classes damage as equal. As each class accumulates better gear with more of its preferred stat, the class with the greater benefit will experience a much larger increase in DPS.

[BannedForViews]

Such as? If you put a passive that reduces *all damage* by 10% after all other calculations have resolved, you will get -10%, exactly on the dot. If not, you missed the entire point of reducing 10% across the board.

I've been cringing reading some of these responses. People don't know how math works I guess. A % modifier is just that. It will always do just that.

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Its a reaction to OP's mentality as he comes here asking "why is it so hard, I can do it this easily" instead of "Why is it so hard, help me understand". Even if the OP was right he'd still be a douche but now hes just plain wrong and, imo, deserves a slap in the face.

And you aren't a douche right...

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Because not every spec gets the same increase per stat. You gain 5 ilvl's giving you around 5% dmg while the other guy gets 6% and your balance is gone down the drain. Now do that on the massive ilvl scale WoW has nowadays in one raid tier.

You would have to give different modifier at different ilvl's and even that is not enough as the stat differences on same ilvl gear make a huge difference in the resulting dps.

It's really simple. Lets say your spec does 200k dps, and another spec does 250k dps. These values, ignoring things like trinkets, will be consistent at consistent gear levels, as math states they will. If you buff the bottom spec with a flat 20% buff modifier, it will do 240k dps. This isn't debatable. They even have it in the game atm. They used it on low level melee classes doing too much damage.

[lunchbox2042]

The only way to get true balance at all gear levels would be to homogenize every spec to the point that they played exactly the same. No one wants that.

[Deathquoi]

I've been cringing reading some of these responses. People don't know how math works I guess. A % modifier is just that. It will always do just that.

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And you aren't a douche right...

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It's really simple. Lets say your spec does 200k dps, and another spec does 250k dps. These values, ignoring things like trinkets, will be consistent at consistent gear levels, as math states they will. If you buff the bottom spec with a flat 20% buff modifier, it will do 240k dps. This isn't debatable. They even have it in the game atm. They used it on low level melee classes doing too much damage.

But if the top spec scales twice as well with its preferred stats than the bottom spec does, then as both specs accumulate gear the top spec will keep pulling ahead over and over again, no matter how much they buff the bottom spec.

[lappee]

I've been cringing reading some of these responses. People don't know how math works I guess. A % modifier is just that. It will always do just that.

% modifier is just that, it doesnt solve things if they scale differently.

There is a reason for math lessons beyond 3rd grade.

And you aren't a douche right....

Maybe I am, maybe not. Its still the answer to the question.

It's really simple. Lets say your spec does 200k dps, and another spec does 250k dps. These values, ignoring things like trinkets, will be consistent at consistent gear levels, as math states they will. If you buff the bottom spec with a flat 20% buff modifier, it will do 240k dps. This isn't debatable. They even have it in the game atm. They used it on low level melee classes doing too much damage.

At specific gear they do said dps, that isnt depatable. Change the stats in the gear or the ilvl and none of that is true anymore

[Deleted]

% modifier is just that, it doesnt solve things if they scale differently.

There is a reason for math lessons beyond 3rd grade.

Only linearity exists in this world - where did you get the information about more than that?

[Nefarious Tea]

Because not every spec gets the same increase per stat. You gain 5 ilvl's giving you around 5% dmg while the other guy gets 6% and your balance is gone down the drain. Now do that on the massive ilvl scale WoW has nowadays in one raid tier.

You would have to give different modifier at different ilvl's and even that is not enough as the stat differences on same ilvl gear make a huge difference in the resulting dps.

That literally doesn't matter. Nothing you said did. In this hypothetical scenario where you want a class to do 10% less damage, applying a -10% damage modifier to the class affects everyone playing that class equally. A modifier like that gives exactly zero fucks about item level. Doing 10k DPS and needing to do 10% less is the same as doing 100k DPS and needing to do 10% less: you still do 90% of the damage you did before.

[Dormie]

The main reason is because this is a game made out of code, everything comes down to predetermined numbers. the only true balance would involve everyone being the exact same.

[BannedForViews]

Yes, the spec at every ilvl and character level will be nerfed 10%, but that may be overkill when at lower levels or ilvls or if we buff a spec, it could make them extremely powerful at higher ilvls. If anything it's only acceptable as a band aid fix until they can balance things better. Typically it's only a certain ability or two that makes a spec under/overpowered. It's just not a smart way to balance things at all.

At what ilvl though? And how do those specs compare at a different ilvl? How do you know that modifier wouldn't be overkill at a higher ilvl where the specs only have say a 5k dps difference doing 295k and 300k, respectively. Now that buff pushes those ilvl players to 354k.

Lets say we have 1 skill, and my 1 skill hits for 1000 and yours hits for 1100 at ilvl 850 lets say. Assuming that an ilvl is a 1% buff, that means at ilvl 900 I should do 1645 and you 1810. It should be a 1% buff for you as well as for me. It may in fact not be, but as Pospospos stated, the only way that mathematically makes sense is if it is hardcoded into skills to do more or less damage at different ilvls, i.e. not actually get buffed by the 1% it should have been buffed by. Now that may be the case, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense for it not to be and needlessly complicated if it is. These things should all be pretty linear.

Now you are right that it could throw things off at lower levels, but they could just as easily give the buff/debuff after level x, for example.

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It really isn't that simple. There's stat scaling and non-linear variables to be considered across 12 different classes and 36 different specs.

Say 2 different specs each have one stat that benefits them the most. One of those classes gets 1.5x the benefit that the other class does from its preferred stat. You set both classes damage as equal. As each class accumulates better gear with more of its preferred stat, the class with the greater benefit will experience a much larger increase in DPS.

a damage buff IS a linear scaler, that is the point. Yes, fire mages get more from crit, others from haste or mastery, blah blah, but a pure damage buff or debuff is indeed linear. It will have no affect on those other mechanics. Fire mages will still get just as many procs as before, they will all just do uniformly more/less damage.

[lappee]

That literally doesn't matter. Nothing you said did. In this hypothetical scenario where you want a class to do 10% less damage, applying a -10% damage modifier to the class affects everyone playing that class equally. A modifier like that gives exactly zero fucks about item level. Doing 10k DPS and needing to do 10% less is the same as doing 100k DPS and needing to do 10% less: you still do 90% of the damage you did before.

The modifier doesnt give a fuck, everything else will.

Now you have to decide whether you want "balance" to be a thing for only the very top players (which is where that kind of modifier works) or do you want balance across the board (you will never have this).

[Laqweeta]

This is what I don't understand about forum posting. The last 3 sentences are lovely, succinct, and of course completely correct. But why did we need the first 3 sentences? Someone can be wrong--and definitely they can be naive--without being stupid.

Keyboard warriors with no repercussions.

[BannedForViews]

The modifier doesnt give a fuck, everything else will.

Now you have to decide whether you want "balance" to be a thing for only the very top players (which is where that kind of modifier works) or do you want balance across the board (you will never have this).

What are you even talking about. If there are 5 rogues who do 10, 11, 12, 13, 14k dps respectively, and rogue gets slapped with a -10% damage modifier (that is they do 90% of previous damage) then the new numbers will be 9, 9.9, 10.8, 11.7, 12.6k dps.

[lappee]

Lets say we have 1 skill, and my 1 skill hits for 1000 and yours hits for 1100 at ilvl 850 lets say. Assuming that an ilvl is a 1% buff, that means at ilvl 900 I should do 1645 and you 1810. It should be a 1% buff for you as well as for me. It may in fact not be, but as Pospospos stated, the only way that mathematically makes sense is if it is hardcoded into skills to do more or less damage at different ilvls, i.e. not actually get buffed by the 1% it should have been buffed by. Now that may be the case, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense for it not to be and needlessly complicated if it is. These things should all be pretty linear.

You're assuming things scale similarly for both. That is not the case in WoW.

a damage buff IS a linear scaler, that is the point. Yes, fire mages get more from crit, others from haste or mastery, blah blah, but a pure damage buff or debuff is indeed linear. It will have no affect on those other mechanics. Fire mages will still get just as many procs as before, they will all just do uniformly more/less damage.

Indeed, so nothing actually changes apart from the ilvl where Fire mage is equal to some other specs. They still scale differently thus you're not solving anything.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

there is no such thing as true balance there will never be balance no game has ever had balance the only way to ever have balance in any game would to be to have every one play the same thing the same way cause even playing differently changes the balance.

[Deleted]

Along comes class 5, and does 13% more damage than the other 4. So you take class 5, and reduce the damage output of every single damage ability they have by 13%. Class 5 is now doing the same amount of dps as 1,2,3, and 4. Balance achieved.

Likewise , if class 5 did 13% less damage than the others, you would buff all of their abilities by 13%. I mean, it really is that simple, or is it not? I dont know squat about game development, so someone please enlighten me as to why this is apparently not the best way to go about this.

Absolute cringe.

I hope to god you're not in charge of anything important, and especially not math related.