Legion combine use of MM and BM

[Deleted]

So with legion landing very soon the question of which spec will be the best for this coming tier. We all know that there a large number of sims out there detailing which spec will be best. Currently not taking into account of the level of skill required to play MM over BM this tier MM should be the better spec. However with the creation of mythic+ and the gear which can be obtained from doing them, for a top end raiding guild this gear will be required. With the sims and personally testing within mythic+ BM is the better spec.

With MM and BM using the same stats making it easy to swap between them without requiring two sets of gear, the only problem being artifact power. However with us having 3 weeks from legion launch to normal/heroic EN comes out it provides us with the option of using both specs, currently am a top 50 raider therefore i want to maximum the amount of gear I can obtain before mythic EN gets released.

I proposed the idea of levelling as BM which will make the overall levelling and at 110 make doing the daily world quests easier, while also levelin your MM weapon.-

The main trait within the BM weapon which makes it so nice for mythic+ is "master of beasts" and can be obtained by putting 4625 artifact power into the weapon. After getting this trait starting to put all the artifact power obtained after this point into the MM a weapon therefore getting you ready for raiding. Yes this will mean overall you will have less traits in your MM weapon when mythic EN is released, but as you will have been doing mythic+ to higher level wth your BM weapon your overall level of gear should be better therefore your level of dps will be better than if you had been just putting all your artifact power into your MM weapon.

To note that yes you could still obtained this same level of gear while playing MM even in mythic+ but at the same time putting more weight onto your fellow guildies to carry you.

This is my current plan for legion please post what you think about it and if am complety wrong or not.

[Woadnson]

Had come to similar conclusions but not crunched the AP numbers (or my BM dmg to be fair). I think the only thing that might cause me to change method is a legendary drop. If Apex Predator's Claw were to drop I doubt I'd see MM again for a long time.

[Azortharion]

Had come to similar conclusions but not crunched the AP numbers (or my BM dmg to be fair). I think the only thing that might cause me to change method is a legendary drop. If Apex Predator's Claw were to drop I doubt I'd see MM again for a long time.

That makes no sense.

@OP, 13 traits for Beast Mastery, 20 into Marksmanship, then rest into Beast Mastery.

[Deleted]

Had come to similar conclusions but not crunched the AP numbers (or my BM dmg to be fair). I think the only thing that might cause me to change method is a legendary drop. If Apex Predator's Claw were to drop I doubt I'd see MM again for a long time.

If the stat priority will be the same you can have MM loot set for all time you are sure if you get legendary it will be for MM (even when speced to BM).

[eathdemon]

I dont think they are the same, but close enough that wearing h/m gear wont screw over a bm hunter

[Woadnson]

That makes no sense.

Communicates nothing, so in turn makes no sense.

[Azortharion]

The Predator's Claw does not somehow make Beast Mastery a god spec, or a lot better than Marksmanship.

[Zeeket]

@OP, 13 traits for Beast Mastery, 20 into Marksmanship, then rest into Beast Mastery.

Out of curiosity, why would you go back into putting points into BM after getting 20 in marks? would you not want to max out the marks tree for raiding purposes?

[GoKs]

Communicates nothing, so in turn makes no sense.

It is only a 10% dmg increase to your pet..... and he gains the abilities of the other pet specs. Not gonna be that good. Will help more for soloing stuff.

Out of curiosity, why would you go back into putting points into BM after getting 20 in marks? would you not want to max out the marks tree for raiding purposes?

Think it is max attainable before raid opens, but then again I THINK, did no make sure, so is most probably incorrect...

[Zeeket]

Think it is max attainable before raid opens, but then again I THINK, did no make sure, so is most probably incorrect...

I get that, and its only the max if you do the minimum work, the way Azor worded it though made it sound like once hes got 20 in MM he's gunna fill out the BM tree, and if that's what he meant i would like to know the theory behind it.

[Ute]

You may find this useful: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2016/08/a...t-path-legion/
Breaks down Artifact Power for leveling two specs. There is effectively no/little penalty for leveling an offspec if you follow that guide.

[Deleted]

I am also curious why one would go back to BM if MM is the spec to go for. Eagerly awaiting the reply!

I'll venture a guess;
You want 26 BM because its a big deal with titans thunder and all that jazz, whereas relative power with MM doesn't go up the same way after 20? From my limited understanding

[Deleted]

If Effin's new mythic+ update and sims are to be believed, BM is a dead spec since it doesn't out DPS the 20 trait Marksmanship in any situation. Not at bosses, not at two targets, 4, or 6, or more. You should just go full on MM and not give a crap about any other spec, or get SV as your offspec since that's actually pulling numbers.

[Galaar]

You may find this useful: http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2016/08/a...t-path-legion/
Breaks down Artifact Power for leveling two specs. There is effectively no/little penalty for leveling an offspec if you follow that guide.

Not too confident in their daily gains. From what I've been testing and seen there's no cap on Artifact Power and there's an actual incorrect statement in the blog:

When you hit level 110: You don’t get Artifact Power from quests, but everything you kill has a chance to drop items that reward you with AP. From what I’ve seen, you might acquire a few thousand Artifact Power from these drops while leveling.

This from the blog is a bit misleading. Quest rewards do not change once you hit 110. For example, if I hit 110 after 2.5 zones out of the 4 zones, the remaining quests I do in those zones that reward AP, still reward AP. I'm not 100% sure if they are impacted by knowledge though (I do not think they are).

Basically the ability to keep an offspec weapon caught up will depend on more then AP, it'll also depend on relic drops as well. Don't forget relics. For hunters especially, if my MM bow has 3x 36ilvl relics equipped (making the bow ilvl 858) but my BM gun only has 3x 24ilvl relics equipped (making it's ilvl 822) that's a significant drop in weapon dps, which is still tops for the hunter specs (at least the ranged ones, I don't associate with SV).

[Azortharion]

Out of curiosity, why would you go back into putting points into BM after getting 20 in marks? would you not want to max out the marks tree for raiding purposes?

Marksmanship gains almost nothing going from 20-24, so it is not a high priority. No reason to chase that before getting like 13 in BM though, so that you have something to beast Mythic+ modes with. Meanwhile, Beast Mastery makes huge gains until Titan's Thunder at 26 traits. With that said, starting at 110 I am probably going to suggest going like: Beast Mastery 13 (Mythic+ gearing shenanigans), Marksmanship 24 (actual raiding) and then Beast Mastery the rest, but it's not that insane to go for Stormgod in the BM tree before doing 20-24 Marksmanship.

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If Effin's new mythic+ update and sims are to be believed, BM is a dead spec since it doesn't out DPS the 20 trait Marksmanship in any situation. Not at bosses, not at two targets, 4, or 6, or more. You should just go full on MM and not give a crap about any other spec, or get SV as your offspec since that's actually pulling numbers.

His sim uses a wrong APL, and is using single target talents for BM, and that's just the surface of why those sims are a fucking joke. No big deal, though. Sims on Mythic+ are for people who play the game through simulations, meanwhile it only takes a few Mythic+10 runs to tell why Beast Mastery is so insane for them, and why Marksmanship is so cancer.

Or you can follow that sim and suck massive donkey balls in Legion going with anything but BM for meaningful Mythic+ content. that's your choice.

13 traits BM, 21 traits for the other two specs. This is using his raid events for an "imagined" Mythic+ dungeon, which are also a joke, but whatever. This is before relics too, if you have just ONE Furious Swipes relic for Beast Mastery (which you will have, let's wake up), it's obviously gonna be ahead.



Fury of the Eagle is doing 50% of Survival's damage in this sim, because Effin was smart enough to set the add spawns to line right up with Fury of the Eagle, so that's funny and all.

If you eliminate long cooldowns (Trueshot, Aspect of the Wild and Aspect of the Eagle), and look at an "average" pull in a Mythic+ dungeon where you're just going through the motions:



Remember, this is KEEPING Fury of the Eagle even though it's a cooldown, because its cooldown is short.

Survival's only strength in Mythic+ is Ranger's Net, otherwise it's a joke in there since they destroyed Dragonsfire Grenade.

Here's the deal with Mythic+ dungeons:

1. They cannot be reliably simmed. They are way too volatile, affixes change everything, and perhaps more importantly they are not a speedrun.
2. You're not looking for burst damage as much as you are looking for consistently high AoE damage. This is Beast Mastery's strength and the weakness of the other two. Survival does almost no AoE damage without Fury of the Eagle (even without Eagle, it's 43% of its total damage). Marksmanship does mediocre AoE damage without Trueshot to give it the procs needed. Beast Mastery has more, short cooldowns that are all exceptionally powerful. Its base AoE with all cooldowns removed is second to none.

Remember, this is still with 13 traits while the other specs have 21, Beast Mastery AoE goes fucking haywire past this point (1 more point in Furious Swipes, Stormgod which is 10% of AoE damage or so at this level, Titan's Thunder a bit later).

With how cheap 13 traits is (and I am serious, it's fucking cheap), you would be a next-level idiot dingus to not chase down these 13 traits to dominate in Mythic+ dungeons. These sims aren't even half the reason why you should do this, it'd help if people played the game a little because it doesn't take much of a "theorycrafter brain" to see that Beast Mastery is the best spec for Mythic+, and not just by a little. Anecdotal evidence only goes so far, sure, but since you can't sim a Mythic+ dungeon pull in any meaningful way, it is actually the best thing we got. And yeah, I know it's FUCKING tempting to run a bunch of sims to try and get an objective gauge, but it's just not going to happen for these things and many other things.

[eathdemon]

how manny weeks should it take to get 20 in mm, than 13 in bm? 4 weeks or so?

[Azortharion]

It can easily be done before Mythic raid release if you do your stuff just a bit more than the bare minimum.

[Effinhunter]

@Azor. I did not setup the Sims based on ability timers. I set them up based on observing average pack dps times in level 10 mythic dungeons. But sure. Persistent AoE sims. You do that. And BM's single target dps at 13 traits? Keep doubling down on your intuition. Working out great.

The reason why I kept BM talents relatively single target is because I was allowing for beast cleave to be fully upgraded via 14 traits while trying not to gimp it's single target anymore than required because it was not going to be at 26 traits, since you are recommending only 13 as an offspec. Remember that you cannot switch talents in mythic+.

@eath. You can have that by the time mythic dungeons open up. It's certainly viable.

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P.S. the Sims are extremely conservative concerning bullseye. I intentionally made sure bullseye would not be active for the first half of the AoE pack.

[eathdemon]

ok got it. I will be missing most of the first week, leaving 2 days after for a trip, I will be getting 16 min for mm raid. at that point is it worth it to finish off the 20, or go 13 bm, than switch back for the last 4, or is it to much of a raid dps lose to do that?

[Azortharion]

@Azor. I did not setup the Sims based on ability timers. I set them up based on observing average pack dps times in level 10 mythic dungeons. But sure. Persistent AoE sims. You do that. And BM's single target dps at 13 traits? Keep doubling down on your intuition. Working out great.

The reason why I kept BM talents relatively single target is because I was allowing for beast cleave to be fully upgraded via 14 traits while trying not to gimp it's single target anymore than required because it was not going to be at 26 traits, since you are recommending only 13 as an offspec. Remember that you cannot switch talents in mythic+.

@eath. You can have that by the time mythic dungeons open up. It's certainly viable.

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P.S. the Sims are extremely conservative concerning bullseye. I intentionally made sure bullseye would not be active for the first half of the AoE pack.

The sims I ran were with your raid event timers to make a point. Running full single-target talents for Beast Mastery is not going to happen, this is something you could figure out by yourself if you didn't build your recommendation off of watching someone else play in a video.

And sure, I'll buy that you didn't deliberately make the adds spawn like they did to buff Survival, but that's what ended up happening, and it's inflating the fuck out of Survival.

To mock things like "intuition" is incredibly arrogant, it doesn't take much brain to figure out why simulations are nearly completely useless for figuring out a spec choice in Mythic+. Come on, Effin. Instead of playing the game through sims, maybe give Survival a go in practice and let us know how it works out. You'll be absolutely dogshit on any pack of mobs where you don't have Fury of the Eagle, and you won't be dishing out 6-stack Furies outside Eagle and Snake Hunter much either.

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ok got it. I will be missing most of the first week, leaving 2 days after for a trip, I will be getting 16 min for mm raid. at that point is it worth it to finish off the 20, or go 13 bm, than switch back for the last 4, or is it to much of a raid dps lose to do that?

Hire a slave to keep Artifact Knowledge work orders rolling while you're away. It's worth it.