Min/max

[Deleted]

Just listing some Min/max features that were removed from wow over the years


Snapshoting dots

Refreshment of dots right after the last tick

Lining up your cooldowns/on use trinkets, with ICD procs (Instead of completely stopping dps so rppm procs at the right time....)

Profession benefits that boost dps like (Engineering saronite bombs and CD gloves stats buff)

Limited spells casted on the move (To many now)

Reforging/gemming for specific fights / Haste caps

Managing threat as a dps/ kepping aggro as a tank

difficult Mana management for healers / using mana cooldowns(tide,innervate...) during spirit procs for max mana

perfect pet management (not as rewarding now)

Group wide buffs like windury totem

...

ofc there are a million class specific min/max things you can do, but i fell like the game would be way more engaging if all of the above still existed for every class.

[Lochton]

Well, people didn't like having to do all that, so now we don't have to.

Oh, and the spells casted on the move, there isn't as many as you seem to believe.

[ItsTiddles]

Limited spells casted on the move (To many now)

As said above, I don't think there are as many as you think there are.

kepping aggro as a tank

It's not the same as it use to be, but this can still be an issue. Low geared tank vs high geared dps, or even a struggle between two tanks (our prot pala can pull aggro off of our monk when he has a dps trinket on).

difficult Mana management for healers

This is coming back, now that there is no spirit. I rather enjoy the direction they're taking with healer trinkets now in response to taking away spirit. Examples: this, this, and this


Don't get me wrong, I'm sad some things are gone (rip stormlash totem and fox), but things aren't really that bad right now, in my opinion.

[Deleted]

but i fell like the game would be way more engaging if all of the above still existed for every class.

Ok, sure. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and feelings.
I don't feel like that.

[Deleted]

difficult Mana management for healers / using mana cooldowns(tide,innervate...) during spirit procs for max mana

Not to mention Healers putting multiple ranks of the same spell on their ability bars. I remember having rank 4, 7 and 11 for Healing Touch. Talk about full ability bars.

[OrcsRLame]

In exchange for all that, boss mechanics are astronomically more complicated and punishing now. Something like mythic Fel Lord or mythic Mannoroth could not have existed back in Vanilla/TBC/Wrath. I prefer the way the game is now.

[Deleted]

In exchange for all that, boss mechanics are astronomically more complicated and punishing now. Something like mythic Fel Lord or mythic Mannoroth could not have existed back in Vanilla/TBC/Wrath. I prefer the way the game is now.

What do you mean, are you implying that the new boss mechanics where only possible because they removed these little min/max tricks, there is room in the game for both, but blizz seems to think that complex classes don't belong in the current game.

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Ok, sure. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and feelings.
I don't feel like that.

may i ask why?

[Jewsco]

Well, people didn't like having to do all that, so now we don't have to.

Oh, and the spells casted on the move, there isn't as many as you seem to believe.

Most caster classes have maybe one spell at best they can cast on the move. Think the OP still thinks this is mop but they took that out of the game in WoD.

[OrcsRLame]

What do you mean, are you implying that the new boss mechanics where only possible because they removed these little min/max tricks, there is room in the game for both, but blizz seems to think that complex classes don't belong in the current game.

Not exactly. You could have all that stuff you mentioned, but the game would become much harder as a result, likely too hard even for a lot of mythic raiders that got 13/13 before the pre patch. For example, tank gameplay has shifted from maximizing threat to maximizing survivability. If a boss fight like Tyrant absolutely required you to do both, in an absolute sense you'd need more numbers, (meaning more gear) to effectively tank that boss. Under such a paradigm, you might see a boss like mythic Archimonde take twice as many attempts to die.

Somehow, I don't think Blizzard and the majority of mythic raiders would be okay with that. Thus some aspects of those fights would need to be nerfed and re-tuned to reach the level of balance that is deemed appropriate. So, I guess in a sense those things are mutually exclusive.

[Deleted]

As said above, I don't think there are as many as you think there are.



It's not the same as it use to be, but this can still be an issue. Low geared tank vs high geared dps, or even a struggle between two tanks (our prot pala can pull aggro off of our monk when he has a dps trinket on).



This is coming back, now that there is no spirit. I rather enjoy the direction they're taking with healer trinkets now in response to taking away spirit.


Don't get me wrong, I'm sad some things are gone (rip stormlash totem and fox), but things aren't really that bad right now, in my opinion.

The problem with the spells on the move are not the quantity but how often you can use them and how powerful they are, you basically don't lose dps when you move, and that is terrible for melle because they still have down time when they are not at melee, so if caster move they should also have a big dps loss. Spells casted on the move should be things like life tap, or refreshing a dot or a very rare instant cast proc or a lowers dmg spell that you only use when you cant cast like fireblast was for mages before, but now you can simply keep 100% maximun dps while moving with all the instant cast procs of hard hitting spells.

Tank managing aggro between them is the only threat management left in the game and it as been trivialised with taunts, tanks main priority should be keeping aggro and control which tank is tanking the boss if the other tank pulls aggro when he was not supposed to its is fault, because he was not paying attention, struggling to out aggro the other tank should not be a problem because its the tanks job to manage the aggro.

All the trinkets you linked are not even close to what i was referring to, they are basically passives that give you mana, and the activated one is just a mana potion, and that as been in the game since forever, its a use and forget trinket. and the last trinket is a light well guess its cool they are bringing that back.

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Not exactly. You could have all that stuff you mentioned, but the game would become much harder as a result, likely too hard even for a lot of mythic raiders that got 13/13 before the pre patch. For example, tank gameplay has shifted from maximizing threat to maximizing survivability. If a boss fight like Tyrant absolutely required you to do both, in an absolute sense you'd need more numbers, (meaning more gear) to effectively tank that boss. Under such a paradigm, you might see a boss like mythic Archimonde take twice as many attempts to die.

Somehow, I don't think Blizzard and the majority of mythic raiders would be okay with that. Thus some aspects of those fights would need to be nerfed and re-tuned to reach the level of balance that is deemed appropriate. So, I guess in a sense those things are mutually exclusive.

I don't see why the game becoming harder is a bad thing, it would only make getting a kill or playing correctly more enjoyable, in previous expansions tanks still had to manage suitability, and now that blizz is removing the large impact of the active mitigation on tanks it would be a good time to implement more mechanics in tanking again.

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Most caster classes have maybe one spell at best they can cast on the move. Think the OP still thinks this is mop but they took that out of the game in WoD.

The problem with the spells on the move are not the quantity but how often you can use them and how powerful they are, you basically don't lose dps when you move, and that is terrible for melle because they still have down time when they are not at melee, so if caster move they should also have a big dps loss. Spells casted on the move should be things like life tap, or refreshing a dot or a very rare instant cast proc or a lowers dmg spell that you only use when you cant cast like fireblast was for mages before, but now you can simply keep 100% maximun dps while moving with all the instant cast procs of hard hitting spells.

[Roadblock]

I don't see why the game becoming harder is a bad thing, it would only make getting a kill or playing correctly more enjoyable, in previous expansions tanks still had to manage suitability, and now that blizz is removing the large impact of the active mitigation on tanks it would be a good time to implement more mechanics in tanking again.

But how would that gel with Bobby Kotick and Co. plan to make WoW a MOBA/ARPG hybrid and get it ready for consoles?

[Jewsco]

The problem with the spells on the move are not the quantity but how often you can use them and how powerful they are, you basically don't lose dps when you move, and that is terrible for melle because they still have down time when they are not at melee, so if caster move they should also have a big dps loss. Spells casted on the move should be things like life tap, or refreshing a dot or a very rare instant cast proc or a lowers dmg spell that you only use when you cant cast like fireblast was for mages before, but now you can simply keep 100% maximun dps while moving with all the instant cast procs of hard hitting spells.

Tank managing aggro between them is the only threat management left in the game and it as been trivialised with taunts, tanks main priority should be keeping aggro and control which tank is tanking the boss if the other tank pulls aggro when he was not supposed to its is fault, because he was not paying attention, struggling to out aggro the other tank should not be a problem because its the tanks job to manage the aggro.

All the trinkets you linked are not even close to what i was referring to, they are basically passives that give you mana, and the activated one is just a mana potion, and that as been in the game since forever, its a use and forget trinket. and the last trinket is a light well guess its cool they are bringing that back.

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I don't see why the game becoming harder is a bad thing, it would only make getting a kill or playing correctly more enjoyable, in previous expansions tanks still had to manage suitability, and now that blizz is removing the large impact of the active mitigation on tanks it would be a good time to implement more mechanics in tanking again.

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The problem with the spells on the move are not the quantity but how often you can use them and how powerful they are, you basically don't lose dps when you move, and that is terrible for melle because they still have down time when they are not at melee, so if caster move they should also have a big dps loss. Spells casted on the move should be things like life tap, or refreshing a dot or a very rare instant cast proc or a lowers dmg spell that you only use when you cant cast like fireblast was for mages before, but now you can simply keep 100% maximun dps while moving with all the instant cast procs of hard hitting spells.

Have you played the game in awhile? Unless one hits one of thier cd's that allows any move to be used while cast( and that is for a very limited time) ones on the move cast is an instant that is basically a dot like moonfire.
No big hitting move is cast able on the move unless on uses a cd.
And in legion one has to have the mana or build up the cast which is a lot different than it has been for awhile. One will run quickly out of mana just casting moveable casts.

P.s.
Your first post on this did complain about the amount of spells one can use on the move so you are attempting to move the goal posts here.

[OrcsRLame]

I don't see why the game becoming harder is a bad thing, it would only make getting a kill or playing correctly more enjoyable, in previous expansions tanks still had to manage suitability, and now that blizz is removing the large impact of the active mitigation on tanks it would be a good time to implement more mechanics in tanking again.

I don't think the game being hard or harder is a bad thing either. You won't hear complaints from me. That being said, I also think the line has to be drawn somewhere lest things get out of hand. How many attempts should world first mythic Archimonde have taken? 1000? 2000? 10000? 100000? Graham's Number? Where do you draw the line and why?

I assume by "suitability" you mean survivability. In the pre MoP era, tanks had very little control over their survivability. If you disagree with that, well, I don't think there's a point in continuing this conversation, because you're living in a fantasy world. And if anything, in Legion, active mitigation is much harder to manage. AM has way lower uptime across the board, meaning you have to be really choosy with when you want to have it up. Use AM at the wrong time and you're going to die. I also think you'll find that Legion raid bosses are a fair step up in difficulty compared to WoD raid bosses, and I think WoD had some of the hardest raiding content of all time in a mechanical sense.

Also, to chime in on some of your other points. The vast majority of casting on the move got pruned in 7.0. And in high end raiding it's the job of both tanks to make sure aggro is going to the correct tank, because tanks are expected to maximize their dps. And it's not as simple as just taunting. On some bosses, you cannot taunt if the other tank pulls aggro at a bad time. Before HFC got overgeared, on Tyrant and Xhul, if that happened you really had no choice but to wipe it. Xhul because if a tank got aggro on the wrong mini boss, you had a very short amount of time to rip that back or you'd wipe to Shadowfells, and you couldn't use your taunt because you practically had to taunt Xhul on cooldown to deal with Fel/Void strike. On Tyrant if you do extra taunts you run into serious issues with diminishing returns. You actually can't taunt on 2 all of the time because your taunts will hit full DR, so you certainly can't use taunts to cover for a fuck up with aggro.

[Pull My Finger]

I don't think you can generalize these things into one big "min-maxing" theme that one can either be "for" or "against". I'm sure a lot of people might find some of the things you named positive, but then totally dislike some others and the next guy might agree in some points, but then again totally disagree on others. In my case:

Snapshoting dots

Hated that shit, it's a great example of those things that IMO just shouldn't have a place in gaming period, because it's wrong and bad. It's exactly that kind of variables tracking, staring at bars and numbers, fucking around with addons type of stuff that makes playing games a stiff, boring and unintuitive thing. You've got these stiff nerds sitting there making this serious matter out of keeping track of all this crap. Just not how I roll.

Refreshment of dots right after the last tick

What do you mean by that? You can refresh DoTs right after the last tick. Or do you mean HAVING to do it that way in order to not lose out on dps? I don't know, it's not big of a deal to me, I just notice that I enjoy being "allowed" to refresh something 3 seconds earlier and not having the feeling that I fucked it up. It just lets me focus on the grand scheme of things more. I guess I'm just not into this whole autism spectrum playstyle any more.

Lining up your cooldowns/on use trinkets, with ICD procs (Instead of completely stopping dps so rppm procs at the right time....)

Same as above.

Profession benefits that boost dps like (Engineering saronite bombs and CD gloves stats buff)

I miss those. Just because it made professions feel more useful. It gave them purpose and flavor and thus more reason to pursue.

Limited spells casted on the move (To many now)

I don't know, I'm not really under the impression that there are a lot of them in the game now ... and those that are there aren't really those with the most oomph behind them.

Reforging/gemming for specific fights / Haste caps

Most ridiculous thing and the most blatant pointless goldsink ever. How was that ANY fun to anyone? Oh, let me just finger around on this GUI for a second, gotta make some numbers into other numbers. Feels so good.

Managing threat as a dps/ kepping aggro as a tank

Yeah, miss that. It gave the gameplay more structure and outlined class roles better. Nowadays it all often feels so random and whatever when people do uncontrolled stuff, don't give a fuck and there's just no real-time feedback from the game.

difficult Mana management for healers / using mana cooldowns(tide,innervate...) during spirit procs for max mana

Miss that too. Made healing, and boss fights in general, more suspenseful and thrilling. The uncertainty factor, hoping the healers could last for a critical amount of time. If you're gonna have ressources in the game, make them meaningful or just remove them.

perfect pet management (not as rewarding now)

Not qualified to comment on that, because everything about pet management drives me nuts as is. These fucking critters.

Group wide buffs like windury totem

Isn't there still stuff like that in the game?

[Deleted]

I don't think the game being hard or harder is a bad thing either. You won't hear complaints from me. That being said, I also think the line has to be drawn somewhere lest things get out of hand. How many attempts should world first mythic Archimonde have taken? 1000? 2000? 10000? 100000? Graham's Number? Where do you draw the line and why?

I assume by "suitability" you mean survivability. In the pre MoP era, tanks had very little control over their survivability. If you disagree with that, well, I don't think there's a point in continuing this conversation, because you're living in a fantasy world. And if anything, in Legion, active mitigation is much harder to manage. AM has way lower uptime across the board, meaning you have to be really choosy with when you want to have it up. Use AM at the wrong time and you're going to die. I also think you'll find that Legion raid bosses are a fair step up in difficulty compared to WoD raid bosses, and I think WoD had some of the hardest raiding content of all time in a mechanical sense.

Also, to chime in on some of your other points. The vast majority of casting on the move got pruned in 7.0. And in high end raiding it's the job of both tanks to make sure aggro is going to the correct tank, because tanks are expected to maximize their dps. And it's not as simple as just taunting. On some bosses, you cannot taunt if the other tank pulls aggro at a bad time. Before HFC got overgeared, on Tyrant and Xhul, if that happened you really had no choice but to wipe it. Xhul because if a tank got aggro on the wrong mini boss, you had a very short amount of time to rip that back or you'd wipe to Shadowfells, and you couldn't use your taunt because you practically had to taunt Xhul on cooldown to deal with Fel/Void strike. On Tyrant if you do extra taunts you run into serious issues with diminishing returns. You actually can't taunt on 2 all of the time because your taunts will hit full DR, so you certainly can't use taunts to cover for a fuck up with aggro.

I don't think that increasing class complexity will increase the number of tries in a world first kill, because a world first player will be able to play the class to their fullest regardless of the boss fight difficulty. the hard part about the fight is executing the tactic as a raid group not playing your character correctly because that is already expected

Auto correct messed the word up sry, Tank in the previous expansions had way fewer active mitigation CD but they were more meaningful, Mop had a really good model of active mitigation and i think that the mop model plus the threat management play style of tanking would be perfect, blizzard said that they were reducing the impact of active mitigation in legion because they want less experienced tank to not fall so far behind from the really good tanks doing the exact same thing thing they did with snapshooting because if created a huge gap between the really good players and the bad ones, i don't see why playing better than someone else is bad and should never happen. Do you really think that with each expansion bosses get harder just because they are part of a new expansion?, because with that logic some of the hardest bosses ever like firefighter and unbuffed LK where supper easy because they are part of an older expansion

Not being able to cover threat fucks ups with taunt is a good thing, but if the tanks were competing with the dps to keep aggro and with each other to not over aggro it would be way more interesting, than to just not over aggro the other tank, because honestly that is rather simplistic.

[Deathquoi]

But how would that gel with Bobby Kotick and Co. plan to make WoW a MOBA/ARPG hybrid and get it ready for consoles?

People like you have been saying this for virtually half of WoW's existence. When, exactly, do you reckon they're going to get around to it? Probably about the same time they start selling gear on the cash shop, right?

[Deleted]

Have you played the game in awhile? Unless one hits one of thier cd's that allows any move to be used while cast( and that is for a very limited time) ones on the move cast is an instant that is basically a dot like moonfire.
No big hitting move is cast able on the move unless on uses a cd.
And in legion one has to have the mana or build up the cast which is a lot different than it has been for awhile. One will run quickly out of mana just casting moveable casts.

P.s.
Your first post on this did complain about the amount of spells one can use on the move so you are attempting to move the goal posts here.

The spells you're referring to are spells like icy floes, but that is not the only way to deal damage on the move, im sorry if i didn't wrote my thoughts correctly, There are to many ways to keep doing 100% max dps on the move as a ranged caster either trough instant cast procs or spells that allow casting on the move, but mainly instant cast procs or relevant dps spells that don't make you lose dps when you move or reduce only slightly reduce the dps loss of moving.

only talking about dps classes that what i know more about

Shadow priest - (void bolt, instant cast mind blast) just remove the instant casts and reduce the decay of insanity and the class is way more interesting to play during movement phases

Warlocks - affliction/demo not many instant casts hard hitting spells but their main damage source comes from dots and pets so movement is not a big dps loss, make dots and pets do less damage and switch drain like with casted shadow bolt so movement impacts dps.
Destro - make conflagrate a longer cooldown that generates two soul shard make it so it does not acumulate stacks, make incinerate have a longer cast time, give dimentional rift and havoc a cast time.

Balance - instant cast starsurge, warrior of elune. Starsurge should be isntant cast when it procs like it was before, moonkins should not have blink

mages - remove icy floes and reduce the number of instant cast procs that are part of the main rotation, blink is enough.

elemental - remove instant cast lava burst, make the proc of lava burst give a shorter cast time,

Hunter - don't alow casting on the move.

My point is ranged dps already have the advantage over melee in all fights, and in my opinion movement should have a big impact on ranged dps.

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I don't think you can generalize these things into one big "min-maxing" theme that one can either be "for" or "against". I'm sure a lot of people might find some of the things you named positive, but then totally dislike some others and the next guy might agree in some points, but then again totally disagree on others. In my case:



Hated that shit, it's a great example of those things that IMO just shouldn't have a place in gaming period, because it's wrong and bad. It's exactly that kind of variables tracking, staring at bars and numbers, fucking around with addons type of stuff that makes playing games a stiff, boring and unintuitive thing. You've got these stiff nerds sitting there making this serious matter out of keeping track of all this crap. Just not how I roll.



What do you mean by that? You can refresh DoTs right after the last tick. Or do you mean HAVING to do it that way in order to not lose out on dps? I don't know, it's not big of a deal to me, I just notice that I enjoy being "allowed" to refresh something 3 seconds earlier and not having the feeling that I fucked it up. It just lets me focus on the grand scheme of things more. I guess I'm just not into this whole autism spectrum playstyle any more.



Same as above.



I miss those. Just because it made professions feel more useful. It gave them purpose and flavor and thus more reason to pursue.



I don't know, I'm not really under the impression that there are a lot of them in the game now ... and those that are there aren't really those with the most oomph behind them.



Most ridiculous thing and the most blatant pointless goldsink ever. How was that ANY fun to anyone? Oh, let me just finger around on this GUI for a second, gotta make some numbers into other numbers. Feels so good.



Yeah, miss that. It gave the gameplay more structure and outlined class roles better. Nowadays it all often feels so random and whatever when people do uncontrolled stuff, don't give a fuck and there's just no real-time feedback from the game.



Miss that too. Made healing, and boss fights in general, more suspenseful and thrilling. The uncertainty factor, hoping the healers could last for a critical amount of time. If you're gonna have ressources in the game, make them meaningful or just remove them.



Not qualified to comment on that, because everything about pet management drives me nuts as is. These fucking critters.



Isn't there still stuff like that in the game?

Snapshoting dots was a really good mechanic, blizzard just needed to balance it so dots didnt do 90% of your dmg, but because so many people complained it was to hard they just removed it

Dot refreshment to the second was what separated the good players from the really good players and i can see that you don't enjoy having to play your class perfectly but a lot of people enjoy doing that, and if you don't want to be good at something you should have to pay atention to get the most out o it not just herpaderp and press 123 close to the correct time

Spells on the move- i didnt write it correctly, waht i meant to say is that you don't almost any dps when you move as a caster and that is just retarded

If you don't enjoy reforging or gemming its fine but dont know why they add to take it out of the game, some people liked it so why not have it in the game

Im refering to groups buffs like in tbc where totems where party wide not raid wide, it required you to put some though in your raid comp.

[Pull My Finger]

Dot refreshment to the second was what separated the good players from the really good players and i can see that you don't enjoy having to play your class perfectly but a lot of people enjoy doing that, and if you don't want to be good at something you should have to pay atention to get the most out o it not just herpaderp and press 123 close to the correct time

It has nothing to do with that. It's just a shit mechanic and when "being good at something" means "accepting shitty gameplay", then that gameplay needs to be changed. If you like micro-managing DoTs to the second, it doesn't mean that you're "better" than someone else or able to do something they can't. It just means that you don't mind bad mechanics.

[Jewsco]

The spells you're referring to are spells like icy floes, but that is not the only way to deal damage on the move, im sorry if i didn't wrote my thoughts correctly, There are to many ways to keep doing 100% max dps on the move as a ranged caster either trough instant cast procs or spells that allow casting on the move, but mainly instant cast procs or relevant dps spells that don't make you lose dps when you move or reduce only slightly reduce the dps loss of moving.

only talking about dps classes that what i know more about

Shadow priest - (void bolt, instant cast mind blast) just remove the instant casts and reduce the decay of insanity and the class is way more interesting to play during movement phases

Warlocks - affliction/demo not many instant casts hard hitting spells but their main damage source comes from dots and pets so movement is not a big dps loss, make dots and pets do less damage and switch drain like with casted shadow bolt so movement impacts dps.
Destro - make conflagrate a longer cooldown that generates two soul shard make it so it does not acumulate stacks, make incinerate have a longer cast time, give dimentional rift and havoc a cast time.

Balance - instant cast starsurge, warrior of elune. Starsurge should be isntant cast when it procs like it was before, moonkins should not have blink

mages - remove icy floes and reduce the number of instant cast procs that are part of the main rotation, blink is enough.

elemental - remove instant cast lava burst, make the proc of lava burst give a shorter cast time,

Hunter - don't alow casting on the move.

My point is ranged dps already have the advantage over melee in all fights, and in my opinion movement should have a big impact on ranged dps.

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Snapshoting dots was a really good mechanic, blizzard just needed to balance it so dots didnt do 90% of your dmg, but because so many people complained it was to hard they just removed it

Dot refreshment to the second was what separated the good players from the really good players and i can see that you don't enjoy having to play your class perfectly but a lot of people enjoy doing that, and if you don't want to be good at something you should have to pay atention to get the most out o it not just herpaderp and press 123 close to the correct time

Spells on the move- i didnt write it correctly, waht i meant to say is that you don't almost any dps when you move as a caster and that is just retarded

If you don't enjoy reforging or gemming its fine but dont know why they add to take it out of the game, some people liked it so why not have it in the game

Im refering to groups buffs like in tbc where totems where party wide not raid wide, it required you to put some though in your raid comp.

I am going to go with no on your ideas here. Thanks but no thanks fights already have lots of movement and you want dps classes to do no dps for long stretches during the fights? Also you realize movement dps is how they balance classes? You do know if standing still a hunter would be destroyed in dps by any other class but being able to move and dps is how they make up for it right? As of sims now all hunter classes except survival is at the bottom and you do know survival is melee now right? You do know they took all of the versatility away from hunters too right? So now you want to take away movement? Why would anyone choose range specs with your ideas? Nice try but no

[Advent]

Dot snapshotting was removed because you needed addons to do it properly, and if you didn't, you were bad. That is bad design. If a player needs a 3rd party addon to play the class the way it is intended, then the developers have messed up the class design and it needs to be removed or changed. It didn't miraculously make you a better player because you downloaded and addon that lit up to tell you when to refresh dots, and if you believe that's the case, then I suppose you're a good gamer because you were able to beat Simon. Good for you.