Al leaders made esentially the same decision at Broken Shore.

[Mehrunes]

As you may be right in defining Varian's words as not a conclusive acceptance of Horde betrayal, it is still words that illustrate doubt, along with the visual cues of facial expression in the cinematic. As for the horn, I simply do not see it as a warning to the Alliance that they are retreating. It was blown primarily for the horde troops that they should retreat.

And when he sees the demons arriving moments later on the right the visual cues of facial expression imply realization of why they retreated.

As many posters before me had said the horde did not make any effort to relay their situation to the Alliance or make any effort to provide assistance with an combined retreat. Sylvanas acted on the behalf of Voljin's request and the request was not to let the horde die there. The gunship was called in not for a retreat, but to finish things off as it was substantially easier waves that the Alliance faced, until the final summoning of all the named legion commanders.

The horn relays information just fine. And other than dying to the incoming demon swarm that couldn't reach the Alliance anyway, what effort of assistance could they offer the Alliance? Also, regardless of what the gunship was called in for, it was called before the Horde retreated and arrived immediately afterwards, allowing for an easy retreat anyway. One that didn't need the assistance of the Horde.

[kingj56]

Its classic strat and a good move on the legion. If the horde stayed like many alli fanboys wanted. The alli would have been to entrenched to back out when the inevitable flank would have happened due to the horde being overrun and beaten. The entirety of azeroth would have fallen with 90% of its leaders dead and gone. No way the dwarves, gallywix and Lorthemar would have kept it together. Lets not forget the hero (you) would have been dead too (Lorewise anyway). So Azeroth Greatest heroes and leaders dead in one...fel.... swoop. We lose gg. Fanboys get over it, Logosh died gloriously.

[Stormdash]

If you think I'm going to read that you're crazy. You're still saying i'm going on about the same thing when infact you are

If you won't even read a TL;DR that's probably 150 words, what's the point in debating anything with you?

[Zulkhan]

It is a counter point. Before you say others aren't smart you should probably you know...be smart yourself. Genn isn't reasonable when it comes to Sylvanas of course, but Varian was reasonable and he came to the same conclusion.

Varian came to no conclusion. He was doubtful. Doubt is the very thing preventing you to make a choice or draw conclusions. Genn was the one who jumped to conclusions to feed his confirmation bias. And it doesn't seem like Varian's doubts lasted long, as once he saw the very cliff where the Dark Rangers were overrun by demons he immediately and convincingly ordered a retreat.

If you think I'm going to read that you're crazy.

Not a great excuse when he even wrote a TL;TR version of his post.

You're still saying i'm going on about the same thing when infact you are

The difference is that you keep repeating a point abundantly refuted instead of coming up with better arguments, forcing him to refute your posts over and over again.

[Deleted]

Doubt or not, Sylvanas made no effort to ensure the Alliance knew she was retreating, Varian being dumb is no counter argument. That's my point.

She sound the horn, calling the retreat. That was more than enough, especially when Genn and Varian instantly knew what was happening with the Horde. Even Jaina refers to the Horde as "cowards", so they knew it was retreat.

People need to ditch the Hollywoodesque idea that field commanders shout orders or sent messengers to report each decision. Romans, for example, had different types of horns for different types of field orders.

[Deleted]

Anyone criticizing the Horde's withdrawal is not being objective. Essentially all the leaders made the same decision: they retreated when their position became impossible and staying would mean annihilation. This happened for the Horde moments before it happened for the Alliance, but it happened to both and all leaders responded similarly.

The demons in front of Gul'dan were a distraction, a holding action. The real mass was coming from our flank. If you actually played both sides, instead of just watching the cinematics, you know there were 10x, maybe 100x as many demons on our flank. My Tauren Bear was doing 124k dps with un-buffed thrash and swipe. I did nothing that dramatic in front of Gul'dan. They weren't in neat rows, they were just so many you couldn't count them, so many your screen became a green blur with red damage numbers swimming across it.

The Horde retreated with Thrall unconscious, Vol'jin mortally wounded, and a crushing weight of demons.

The Alliance saw that same mass of demons on their flank and ordered the retreat as well. Varian would have left with his troops to fight another day (like Baine and Sylvannas), but had to sacrifice himself (heroically!) when the Fel Reaver grabbed the ship.

It makes perfect sense to role play as if your character doesn't get this, if you're into role play, and especially if you're playing Alliance.

But any player who doesn't get it is not thinking it through.

Uhm, bullshit. Varian made the decision to stay and sacrifice his own life for his people, Sylvanas made the decision to sacrifice the Alliance lives for her people. See the difference?

[Deleted]

Sylvanas made the decision to sacrifice the Alliance lives for her people.

Sylvanas made the decision to save her people. Heck, the Dark Rangers were supporting the Alliance while their own Warchief and leadership were being bombed by Fel Carriers and overrunned by demons.

So, no. Varian (and Vol'jin) paid for the mistake of both factions not understanding that it was pointless to press on with the attack.

[luccadeo]

Playing that campaign on my horde toons made me feel real ashamed of playing horde. It makes me wonder if Voljin was a dreadloard in disguise trying to so discord between alliance and horde.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Uhm, bullshit. Varian made the decision to stay and sacrifice his own life for his people, Sylvanas made the decision to sacrifice the Alliance lives for her people. See the difference?

Uhm, bullshit. Varian made the decision to retreat. He was climbing onto the ship himself, and only sacrificed himself once it became obvious the ship couldn't leave unless the Fel Reaver was dealt with. Yes, Varian was a hero. But he made the same initial decision in face of a hopeless military situation that the Horde did. The only one any sensible commander would make. Keeping your troops in the trap to be annihilated is exactly what Gul'dan wanted them to do.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas made the decision to save her people. Heck, the Dark Rangers were supporting the Alliance while their own Warchief and leadership were being bombed by Fel Carriers and overrunned by demons.

So, no. Varian (and Vol'jin) paid for the mistake of both factions not understanding that it was pointless to press on with the attack.

None of what you said contradicts what I said. Varian sacrificed his own life while Sylvanas chose to sacrifice the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

Uhm, bullshit. Varian made the decision to retreat.

After the Horde made off. Jesus. Then Varian threw himself at the Fel thing knowing he would surely die, but knowing that it would ensure the safety of literally everyone else.

The Alliance has always been the faction that made heroic sacrifices, while the Horde has always been the faction that stabbed others and each other in the back.

[PosPosPos]

It's irritating that most conflicts between the horde and alliance are basically spawned from misunderstandings, of which are usually borne out of lack of information, and both sides probably know that.

Yet they never learn from their mistakes and don't communicate between themselves to share information.

Would it kill them to decide on specific calls ahead of time, like perhaps 3 quick blares of a horn, to inform the other side that they are in danger of wiping and need to retreat? How can any sort of serious multi-party cooperative force not have any way to convey to their allies of the state of the battlefield?

[Deleted]

It's irritating that most conflicts between the horde and alliance are basically spawned from misunderstandings, of which are usually borne out of lack of information, and both sides probably know that.

Yet they never learn from their mistakes and don't communicate between themselves to share information.

Would it kill them to decide on specific calls ahead of time, like perhaps 3 quick blares of a horn, to inform the other side that they are in danger of wiping and need to retreat? How can any sort of serious multi-party cooperative force not have any way to convey to their allies of the state of the battlefield?

It's called "forcing the faction war". Blizzard is doing it every expansion. Ashran was the most ridiculous example.

[PosPosPos]

It's called "forcing the faction war". Blizzard is doing it every expansion. Ashran was the most ridiculous example.

Well, I definitely see the irony in forcibly dumbing down the lore-based characters.

Just like how they like to dumb down the game.

[Deleted]

None of what you said contradicts what I said. Varian sacrificed his own life while Sylvanas chose to sacrifice the Alliance.

Except she didn't chose squat, because she was neither the leader or nor the Alliance was her duty. That's some kind of BS logic.

Also, that assumption that the Alliance wasn't screwed, no matter what, doesn't really help your point.

- - - Updated - - -

Would it kill them to decide on specific calls ahead of time, like perhaps 3 quick blares of a horn, to inform the other side that they are in danger of wiping and need to retreat? How can any sort of serious multi-party cooperative force not have any way to convey to their allies of the state of the battlefield?

Who said they don't know? I mean, the Alliance has the SI:7, they report all those things to the Alliance leadership.

We need to look to those that instantly called the Horde retreat as "cowardly". Genn Greymane and Jaina Proudmoore, the two anti-Horde warhawks.

[Bigby]

You can't win this argument, OP. This is what Forsaken players have been saying for years about the difference between Role-playing and knowledge you're meant to have as a player. But to this day tons of people think Wrathgate was the Forsaken and that the Forsaken raise people with necromancy and force them to join thier ranks (not giving them a second chance at life, because light-based resurrection needs to be *fast*).

Blizzard is really good at making players role play when they don't even realize that's what they are doing.

People have a problem with the Forsaken because their writing makes no sense, especially the raising people part. Heck, in the beta it was EXPLICITLY mind control, which was about the only way it made sense that the people who've been fighting two seconds ago die, get raised, and immediately turn on their former friends. The problem is they removed the mind control debuff which Sylvanas fanboys (because lets not pretend Forsaken fanboys care for the race so much as Sylvanas, because 99% of 'FORSAKEN ARE GOOD' play Blood Elves, whilst the actual Forsaken players take their favourite race's immoral actions in stride) take as an excuse that every single raised Forsaken ever is somehow 110% utterly complicit in murdering their former comrades LITERALLY SECONDS after they were just killed by the Forsaken.

She may not have ordered the Wrath Gate, but considering most of Vanilla's Forsaken questing involved creating the plague in the first place, in her name, under her orders, it's not a case of 'if' Sylvanas would or wanted to use it so much as 'when' it's just Putress jumped the gun on doing it because of his masters.

[PosPosPos]

Who said they don't know? I mean, the Alliance has the SI:7, they report all those things to the Alliance leadership.

We need to look to those that instantly called the Horde retreat as "cowardly". Genn Greymane and Jaina Proudmoore, the two anti-Horde warhawks.

Was such information reported during the battle, on the battlefield, as opposed to after?

In the first place, was such information conveyed at all, lore-wise?

[Bigby]

Except before Varian could die heroically the Alliance had to "pussy out collectively", on Varian's orders no less, because Varian's death was him covering their escape. Because the Alliance can't even do that properly. With air evac. Also, Sylvanas not being an Orc aside, the idea that lok'tar ogar means the Horde just commits suicide attacks deliberately and doesn't know the concept of retreat is outright idiotic.

I love Horde fanboy logic.

>Genn/Varian/Alliance is a coward for retreating.
>Sylvanas is a tactical genius who is the smartest person ever for retreating and anybody who disagrees is a poopoo head because how dare you insult my body pillow.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I love Horde fanboy logic.

>Genn/Varian/Alliance is a coward for retreating.
>Sylvanas is a tactical genius who is the smartest person ever for retreating and anybody who disagrees is a poopoo head because how dare you insult my body pillow.

It must be hard living in a world where you can't understand simple things like he was just responding to bullshit with the same bullshit to show how stupid that type of reasoning is.

[Stormdash]

Uhm, bullshit. Varian made the decision to stay and sacrifice his own life for his people, Sylvanas made the decision to sacrifice the Alliance lives for her people. See the difference?

It's a lunatic reach as far as interpretation of the text goes. She didn't throw any Alliance in the path of harm meant for the Horde, which is the only thing that accusation could rationally refer to.

The Horde were taking by far the bigger brunt of the Legion's assault. WHILE splitting their force to provide air cover to the Alliance who had the primary objective in sight. AND they sounded what was clearly a call to retreat which doubles as a warning to anyone who can hear it. AND the Alliance immediately understood it for what it was (the Horde was out of the fight) and ordered a similar retreat. And Gul'dan played his Fel Reaver trump card which didn't become any more or less possible because of the Horde's retreat.

And on top of all that, Sylvanas obviously was reluctant to leave the field and pretty obviously regrets not having seen it through -- both her moment of conflict before sounding the horn and her somber look back at the Shore when Varian has been killed speak to this.

But there was nothing for it. Anybody still yapping about the Horde having somehow caused harm to the Alliance are just headcanoning the hell out of this.

[Deleted]

Except before Varian could die heroically the Alliance had to "pussy out collectively"

They retreated after the Horde "pussied out". Varian recalculated the odds and came to the conclusion that after the Horde left them hanging, they would surely all die, for nothing. So Varian decided to give his people the chance to fight another day.

Don't get me wrong, I get that you have to retreat sometimes when the odds are bad. No point in dying a needless death. It's the fact that the Horde left the Alliance hanging in the midst of battle after agreeing to fight together and after the leaders build up a certain trust in each other. You can see it throughout the scenario when Varian and Sylvanas are talking to each other. The whole spirit of their conversation is "we're in this together". Had Sylvanas come down to Varian and told him "look Wrynn, we will lose this battle, we have to retreat and regroup and launch another attack another day, recall your forces and I will recall mine" then it would've been a totally different thing. Now I get that decisions had to be made quickly, but as a leader, you also have to consider how your actions will look to the other faction, and what consequences that will bring with it and this way, it looked like the moment the battle was getting serious, the Horde forces turned around, and left, without a word, leaving the Alliance to the slaughter. It looked like they set it up like that. Of course the Alliance feels betrayed, why wouldn't they?