[Discussion] Digital Refunds and Customer Satisfaction.

[PACOX]

No Man's Sky's poor launch has yielded a large number of players asking for refunds, in fact the demand is so high that retails have loosed their normal return policies specifically for No Man's Sky.

All retailers have different policies, a lot people are familiar with Steam's less than 2 hours of gameplay for a refund policy.

I'm on board with refunds, if a customer bought a game that's clearly broken/didn't meet their expectations then I think they should be allowed to refund the product, even if they purchased it digitally. What I don't always agree with are terms of refund policies and the excuses that people us to petition a refund.

Steam's policy is in the right direction but I think 2 hours isn't even to evaluate a game unless you just thought the game was completely something different. Just an example, maybe you bought FF7 but meant to buy FF10 or whatever, just an example. Imagine if you bought something from a store and only had 2 hours to ask for a refund, doesn't matter if the product was defective or not.

On the other side of the argument though, I don't think people should be asking for refunds if they put 30-40 whatever hours into the game. After a certain point, if you don't like a game then you have to ask yourself why just allowed yourself to spend 30 hours of doing something you don't like. And if your problem is that you enjoyed the first 29 hours but not the that last hour, well tough shit. its a pet peeve of my when someone says they spend 40-60 hours in a game and then the game somehow suddenly become boring, within the first week that game was released. You can only blame so much on the game at that point. Who is forcing you to play the game? You're allowed to get bored, but realize why you're bored. No if the developer broke their game in a patch that can't be fixed in a reasonable time frame, I think refunds should open back up.

Retails 100% need to give consumers a chance to refund a game for whatever reason, but I don't think there should be free passes to purchase a game (digitally) get your satisfaction out of it, and then ask for a refund. The developer and retailer have upheld their end of deal after that point.

How should digital refunds be dealt with in the video game industry.

[Seifa]

Your example of buying a wrong product doesn't make sense, because you will realize the mistake as soon as possible and refund it before the 14 days mark without even installing the game so you won't incur into the 2 hours limit to test it.

I think 2 hours is too low to evaluate if a game is working correctly, because there are games that will break later, for example Ducktales Remaster on Steam. This title has a game breaking glitch near the final boss, which the cutscene will freeze and you need to kill the process. There is a workaround that can "fix" it but it doesn't work for everyone; i was one of the lucky guys that could finish the game by setting the cpu affinity to 1 core for the game and skip the two bugged cutscenes as soon as they started; others couldn't finish the game even with this "fix".
This happens much later the 2 hours of gameplay but in this case a refund should be given to players because the product isn't working correctly, regardless of the time spent playing.

Another example, that many gamers know, is Arkham Knight, the culprit that forced Valve to finally release a refund system and it was possible for a limited amount of time to ask for money back regardless of the time played and the time passed after the purchase. Why? Because the game was faulty and below quality control standards.

Now, is NMS's performance beyond repair? Are users meeting the minimum requirement specs and still playing terribly? Well, i'll cut it short. If NMS is another faulty product, a refund should be given to everyone asking for it for that reason. That's what refunds are best used for, get money back if a product isn't working properly.

Now, No Man Sky had the problem of over hyping and too many took the bait without waiting for proper reviews and real gameplay videos (trailers and montages at events are fabricated). Those people can't ask a refund after playing more than 2hrs because they didn't like it; it's not the job of the dev to make a game for everyone taste but it's the job of the consumer to do the proper research before buying a game; if not, everyone can refund games because they weren't of their liking and just buy another title and continue a refund cycle, which thankfully is bannable on Steam.

In a nutshell: refunds shouldn't be tied to the 2hrs limit if the game is reported to be faulty but playing a game for a long time and claiming it wasn't good at the end isn't a valid excuse to get your money back.

[Remilia]

Essentially what the nutshell was from Seifa. The refund is meant for faulty products in which it either doesn't function or isn't as advertised. There aren't any company that allow you to use a product extensively and then return it for refund. Only thing you get is a warranty.

Yes I think there should be a refund system, but the exact restriction in when you can is something that I myself don't know what it should be due to potential abusers.

[Deleted]

Essentially what the nutshell was from Seifa. The refund is meant for faulty products in which it either doesn't function or isn't as advertised. There aren't any company that allow you to use a product extensively and then return it for refund. Only thing you get is a warranty.

Yes I think there should be a refund system, but the exact restriction in when you can is something that I myself don't know what it should be due to potential abusers.

The restriction is clear: have a third party evaluate whether a product is eligible for extended refund rights. If you put your refund policy on 14 days, a lot of people will simply play games and refund them when finished. You can complete most games in 14 days. It would be a disaster for the industry.

Instead you need an authority that can define whether the refund request is legitimate, basically you need someone to determine the broken state of the product. It's obvious with a washing machine when it washes properly but during the tumbling phase rips your clothes apart at 4.000rpm: it still worked fine for 80% of the time (washing) but is obviously broken for the last 20% of the washing machine cycle.
For games this isn't that easy. You can't rely on the volume of refund requests as well since a lot of gamers are sheep who blindly follow opinion makers and popular streamers: How many of the No Man's Sky refundees actually played the game or refunded based on what others have said?

There should be a refund system, a customer has a right to have his purchase refunded if the product is not as advertised (whether due to MarCom mistakes or product errors). However, you need to have a flexible policy in place because games are a consumable product in a very short time frame. You can't have a fixed policy in nr. of hours or days active, it doesn't cover the specifics of the product.
It's like eating an entire jar of Nutella in 3 days and demanding a refund because it tasted funky.

[Dezerte]

Some mixture of Origin's and Steam's policy would be ideal in my view. 2 hours is, like you said, not always enough (and it encourages game developers to focus on the first two hours of the game).

[Arrashi]

The problem with 2 hours policy is that is way too little for some games (like for instance fallout 4) while its way too much for small indie/artistic projects and games like visual novels where you can finish the game and refund it. The optimal way would be if steam calculated it for each product (or had some categories in which it puts games in) to solve that.

You could arguably tie it to some kind of "halfway/finished the game" achievemnt where after obtaining it game is no longer refundable.

[Deleted]

3 to 4 hours is enough for most games.

[thewallofsleep]

I think the time limit is fair for most circumstances. How long should it be? 5 hours? 10? How much of a game should the person be able to experience before they can return it for a full refund, no questions asked? Plenty of games, especially indies, aren't even 5 hours long. 2 hours prevents abuse, to a degree.

If there is a known issue effecting thousands of people, they should change that restriction, but it should be case by case.

[Remilia]

The restriction is clear: have a third party evaluate whether a product is eligible for extended refund rights. If you put your refund policy on 14 days, a lot of people will simply play games and refund them when finished. You can complete most games in 14 days. It would be a disaster for the industry.

Instead you need an authority that can define whether the refund request is legitimate, basically you need someone to determine the broken state of the product. It's obvious with a washing machine when it washes properly but during the tumbling phase rips your clothes apart at 4.000rpm: it still worked fine for 80% of the time (washing) but is obviously broken for the last 20% of the washing machine cycle.
For games this isn't that easy. You can't rely on the volume of refund requests as well since a lot of gamers are sheep who blindly follow opinion makers and popular streamers: How many of the No Man's Sky refundees actually played the game or refunded based on what others have said?

There should be a refund system, a customer has a right to have his purchase refunded if the product is not as advertised (whether due to MarCom mistakes or product errors). However, you need to have a flexible policy in place because games are a consumable product in a very short time frame. You can't have a fixed policy in nr. of hours or days active, it doesn't cover the specifics of the product.
It's like eating an entire jar of Nutella in 3 days and demanding a refund because it tasted funky.

And that kind of illustrates my point, I don't know a feasible solution but I still think there should be some sort of refund policy. The suggestion of having a 3rd party determine it isn't going to happen. Look at all the stuff that comes through steam nowadays, mostly garbage. Having essentially 3rd party QA testers isn't happening for all those games.

Honestly, less than 14 days or 2 hours game play is a decent compromise but it's not perfect and hence why I don't know of a good solution. And as noted, my perspective is if it's clearly broken or not as advertised is when you should be allowed a refund. Not if you dislike a game. If the game runs perfectly and has no problems but you don't like the game I don't think it should be a grounds for refund. If you play a game nearly to the end and there's a ground breaking bug, then clearly you enjoyed the game enough to play it through and you can probably bitch to the devs to fix it with a patch instead of instantly asking for a refund.

The biggest issue from a developer's side is it's digital AND entertainment. The former is it holds no value as in there's no physical value that you can own or play around with (while being subjected to wear and tear) where as the latter is subjective and can be considered a one time consumption.

[Jtbrig7390]

There aren't any company that allow you to use a product extensively and then return it for refund. Only thing you get is a warranty.

If you buy used Gamestop allows you to return for any reason within 7 days. I could get Deus Ex MD tonight beat it tomorrow and return it the next day.

There should be a refund system and you should be allowed to return a product you don't like. You shouldn't be able to return it if you beat it tho.

There needs to be a better refund system on services like PSN and Steam. Hell origin has a no questions asked refund as long as you do it within 24hrs.

[Blueobelisk]

I'll play the extremist and say the only reason a refund should occur is if the game doesn't work. As in, you can't start it or cant start the game.

[Deleted]

If you buy used Gamestop allows you to return for any reason within 7 days. I could get Deus Ex MD tonight beat it tomorrow and return it the next day.

There should be a refund system and you should be allowed to return a product you don't like. You shouldn't be able to return it if you beat it tho.

There needs to be a better refund system on services like PSN and Steam. Hell origin has a no questions asked refund as long as you do it within 24hrs.

How are they going to know you beat it or played it enough to be bored?

There's an inherent problem with these types of consumable products and refund policies, namely that in the time frame of the refund you can easily consume the product and return it to get your money back, but the retailer has a hard time determining whether you actually consumed the product, or whether your refund claims (if there's any questions asked at all) are legitimate.

It's an interesting topic because I don't think anyone disagrees about the necessity of a refund/return policy, but you're going to destroy an industry if people can readily consume the product and then refund it. Video games, books, movies, music are in a unique position.

[Yunru]

Well main problem with EU law:
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm

14 days to cancel and return purchases made outside shops (online, by phone or mail order)

In the EU you have the right to return these purchases within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind.

The 14-day "cooling off" period does not apply, among others, to:
*sealed data carriers, such as DVDs, which you have unsealed upon receipt.
*online digital content, if you have started downloading or streaming it

Now the big problem is that Digital counts as USED.

Unless they change the digital law, that lying how the product looks like and then seening something else (for example, they said you will get 3 balls, but you can only get and find 1), you should get a full refound.

[Jtbrig7390]

How are they going to know you beat it or played it enough to be bored?

The fix is simple at lease for digital sells.

If X person got Y achievement they can't refund the game. It shows they played it to X point and that is the point of no return. Also until the refund timelimit is up or reached you must play it online. If you try to play it offline it won't work.

[kail]

The fix is simple at lease for digital sells.

If X person got Y achievement they can't refund the game. It shows they played it to X point and that is the point of no return. Also until the refund timelimit is up or reached you must play it online. If you try to play it offline it won't work.

I was just thinking that while reading the thread. 2 hours or even 5 hours just isn't enough IMO. A $60 "should" provide far more entertainment then that. Give a week's time to return a digital game, but if the gamer passed a certain point (say half way into beating a single player) then it becomes nonrefundable.

Of course this kind of practice will be involving some heavy DRM, which is fine IMO when the reasoning is to protect both sides; consumer and developer.

[Deleted]

No Man's Sky's poor launch has yielded a large number of players asking for refunds, in fact the demand is so high that retails have loosed their normal return policies specifically for No Man's Sky.

All retailers have different policies, a lot people are familiar with Steam's less than 2 hours of gameplay for a refund policy.

I'm on board with refunds, if a customer bought a game that's clearly broken/didn't meet their expectations then I think they should be allowed to refund the product, even if they purchased it digitally. What I don't always agree with are terms of refund policies and the excuses that people us to petition a refund.

Steam's policy is in the right direction but I think 2 hours isn't even to evaluate a game unless you just thought the game was completely something different. Just an example, maybe you bought FF7 but meant to buy FF10 or whatever, just an example. Imagine if you bought something from a store and only had 2 hours to ask for a refund, doesn't matter if the product was defective or not.

On the other side of the argument though, I don't think people should be asking for refunds if they put 30-40 whatever hours into the game. After a certain point, if you don't like a game then you have to ask yourself why just allowed yourself to spend 30 hours of doing something you don't like. And if your problem is that you enjoyed the first 29 hours but not the that last hour, well tough shit. its a pet peeve of my when someone says they spend 40-60 hours in a game and then the game somehow suddenly become boring, within the first week that game was released. You can only blame so much on the game at that point. Who is forcing you to play the game? You're allowed to get bored, but realize why you're bored. No if the developer broke their game in a patch that can't be fixed in a reasonable time frame, I think refunds should open back up.

Retails 100% need to give consumers a chance to refund a game for whatever reason, but I don't think there should be free passes to purchase a game (digitally) get your satisfaction out of it, and then ask for a refund. The developer and retailer have upheld their end of deal after that point.

How should digital refunds be dealt with in the video game industry.

I heard Steam still gives everyone who refunds NMS a refund, far beyond 2 hours.

I wish PSN had a policy even remotely as good as that. I really dont understand how Valve were ordered by EU courts to change their refund policy, and PSN are somehow allowed to keep their absurdly terrible one.

[Gorsameth]

While 2 hours from Steam is not a lot it is also not something you can just up without cost.

Saying you make it 10 hours.
A more reasonable numbers for bigger games but what about small indie stuff then? You can not complete the entire game within the 10h refund limit and play them for free.

[Deleted]

While 2 hours from Steam is not a lot it is also not something you can just up without cost.

Saying you make it 10 hours.
A more reasonable numbers for bigger games but what about small indie stuff then? You can not complete the entire game within the 10h refund limit and play them for free.

Why can't companies decide their own refund policy in steam?

[Gorsameth]

Why can't companies decide their own refund policy in steam?

Because 600 different return policies is very confusing for customers and steam lives off customer satisfaction more then developer satisfaction. (devs come to steam to sell more, consumers can easily buy somewhere else).

[Deleted]

Because 600 different return policies is very confusing for customers and steam lives off customer satisfaction more then developer satisfaction. (devs come to steam to sell more, consumers can easily buy somewhere else).

Steam could introduce those options though. Why not have the current system and two extended ones?