I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Nezia]

Well then my first Idea is the only way to please everyone, you won't win this battle so go back to playing your old main.

There is no need to please everyone, that's why there are many classes around. I love stealthy/assassin classes in mmos, but I just cannot stand the energy/combo point system, guess I should go to the rogue forums to cry for talents that change the energy system?

Also, look at the frost dks history and figure what happens when blizzard tries to please everyone: It just does not work, one of the styles always comes on top of the other, but even this one suffers from drawbacks thanks to blizzard trying to balance the other one around. But even with it clearly not working blizzard kept it up only to please people like the ones whining in this very thread.

PS: there is no need to win a battle that is already won.

[Kainslife]

Chi Torpedo used to be very very much like Fel Rush. Also Flying serpent kick Functions similarly.

Chi Torpedo is a talent and no longer works that way. Even when it was available as a DPS ability it certainly wasn't what Windwalker was built around. Flying Serpent Kick functions similarly, but not identically - and certainly not as part of the CORE rotation.

Also how would it contradict Blizzards statement? [...] But forgive me if I don't view you as the mouth piece for Blizzard on all things Demon Hunter.

I'm not speaking for Blizzard, they've already spoken for themselves:

Blizzard has stated that the reason they only have one DPS spec is because they couldn't think of enough unique mechanics for a second spec, so they rolled all of the ideas into one. The only thing unique to Havoc right now is repositioning and skillshots as part of the main rotation. Thus, if you read what Blizzard has already stated about why Havoc is the only DPS spec (hint: it's because they only want to add specs now if they provide something wholly unique), and you look at the one unique thing that Havoc provides over other DPS (hint: it's repositioning and skillshots aka Fel Rush) it doesn't take a whole lot to come to the logical conclusion they Blizzard fully intends Havoc to be centered around their completely unique mechanic of repositioning as part of their core gameplay.

This is further evidenced by the fact that Fel Rush has existed for at least 9 months publicly, for over a year at least internally, and was featured as core gameplay in the initial class reveal as Gamescon 2015.

Take this mountain of evidence, and combine it with the fact that builds that ignore Fel Rush / Fel Mastery are up to 20% behind builds that include it (hint: Blizzard is indirectly telling you how to play the class properly here), and the only conclusion you can draw from this is that Fel Rush is completely and assuredly the reason that Havoc exists. The entire spec is built around this mechanic of a repositioning skillshot.

That is the definition of variety. English.

The false equivalencies to fireball are particularly hilarious. Please keep that up.

The definition of variety and how it was used in that post are not synonymous. Variety is already provided by way of having 11 other classes to choose from.

And the fireball analogy is perfect and air-tight. Both are core rotational abilities.

[Unholyground]

There is no need to please everyone, that's why there are many classes around. I love stealthy/assassin classes in mmos, but I just cannot stand the energy/combo point system, guess I should go to the rogue forums to cry for talents that change the energy system?

Also, look at the frost dks history and figure what happens when blizzard tries to please everyone: It just does not work, one of the styles always comes on top of the other, but even this one suffers from drawbacks thanks to blizzard trying to balance the other one around. But even with it clearly not working blizzard kept it up only to please people like the ones whining in this very thread.

PS: there is no need to win a battle that is already won.

It is not to just please everyone it is to also help prevent unneeded accidental deaths during encounters.

[Kainslife]

It is not to just please everyone it is to also help prevent unneeded accidental deaths during encounters.

The fact that Blizzard is on record as being okay with Death From Above and Killing Spree killing you if used at the wrong time surely means that they're okay with part of the skillcap of Fel Rush being that you don't use it when it's unsafe to.

[Unholyground]

The fact that Blizzard is on record as being okay with Death From Above and Killing Spree killing you if used at the wrong time surely means that they're okay with part of the skillcap of Fel Rush being that you don't use it when it's unsafe to.

Like I said, I personally don't care, I enjoy it as is, I am just trying to find a middle ground for those who like the class but don't like that one thing about that particular spec.

[Feawen]

Like I said, I personally don't care, I enjoy it as is, I am just trying to find a middle ground for those who like the class but don't like that one thing about that particular spec.

That is every single spec in the game.

[Schizoide]

And the fireball analogy is perfect and air-tight. Both are core rotational abilities.

That's amusingly reductionary, as there's much more to it than whether they're part of the core rotation.

Fireball has no downsides. It's functionally identical to dozens of other spells. Nobody has any problems with Fireball. Fel Rush is unique, mandatory movement, supported by tons of talents, and many players hate it enough to decide not to main the spec.

Fel Rush is best compared to WW Monks' Fists of Fury, back when the monk couldn't move while channeling the spell. Players hated it in MoP, they got a glyph to opt-out of the root (in exchange for losing the stun) in WoD, and in Legion you can simply move while casting it without interrupting the cast.

That's the normal speed of Blizzard's reactions, and that's why I tell people not to main Havoc if they hate rotational repositioning. They probably will allow opting-out eventually. But don't hold your breath as to when.

[sajin001]

This doesn't even make sense. Without using Fel Rush, DH plays identical to almost any other melee class - stand still behind the target and spam buttons. How is that at all amazing? Frankly, your terrible suggestion takes away the single thing unique to Havoc.

You think Havoc being the only spec in the entire game to use repositioning and skillshots as a core mechanic is a dumb reason to play it?



Frostbrand is not a core rotational ability. There are about 50 other abilities in the game that offer the same exact functionality as Frostbrand. Fel Rush is both a core rotational ability and the only one of its kind in the entire game. Your analogy does not apply here.

I'm clearly getting nowhere so I'm done. I'm interested to hear what the developers will be saying tomorrow in the Legion Q&A. I'm sure many classes will be getting updates and I think it would be unreasonable to think that demon hunters would not see some changes to havoc to support play styles and talent choice that are underperforming and not being taken by most of the class population.

[Hexxidecimal]

Chi Torpedo is a talent and no longer works that way. Even when it was available as a DPS ability it certainly wasn't what Windwalker was built around. Flying Serpent Kick functions similarly, but not identically - and certainly not as part of the CORE rotation.

Okay...my point still stands.

I'm not speaking for Blizzard, they've already spoken for themselves:

Blizzard has stated that the reason they only have one DPS spec is because they couldn't think of enough unique mechanics for a second spec, so they rolled all of the ideas into one. The only thing unique to Havoc right now is repositioning and skillshots as part of the main rotation. Thus, if you read what Blizzard has already stated about why Havoc is the only DPS spec (hint: it's because they only want to add specs now if they provide something wholly unique), and you look at the one unique thing that Havoc provides over other DPS (hint: it's repositioning and skillshots aka Fel Rush) it doesn't take a whole lot to come to the logical conclusion they Blizzard fully intends Havoc to be centered around their completely unique mechanic of repositioning as part of their core gameplay.

This is further evidenced by the fact that Fel Rush has existed for at least 9 months publicly, for over a year at least internally, and was featured as core gameplay in the initial class reveal as Gamescon 2015.

Take this mountain of evidence, and combine it with the fact that builds that ignore Fel Rush / Fel Mastery are up to 20% behind builds that include it (hint: Blizzard is indirectly telling you how to play the class properly here), and the only conclusion you can draw from this is that Fel Rush is completely and assuredly the reason that Havoc exists. The entire spec is built around this mechanic of a repositioning skillshot.

Your right, it's not fair of me to say that you are speaking for Blizzard, just that you are interpreting the data as you see fit. A lot of which is confirmation bias imo. So I will try and break it down.

-Blizzard has stated that the reason they only have one DPS spec is because they couldn't think of enough unique mechanics for a second spec
No one is asking for a third spec. I haven't seen anyone hint at that even. So Havocs main thing that differentiates them from other melee classes (which I disagree with but I feel like you are close enough on point here to give it to you) is the re-positional skill shot. Okay fair enough, which means we are sitting on other abilities that could be made to be more iconic to the class that are simply being left to rot at the wayside because of the OVER dominance of said skill shot. You can still focus on movement and take out some of the annoyance that people are experiencing with Fel Rush. For instance buffing Fel Blade and making Prep buff it, or something similar. Then you still have a unique play style of jumping in and out of combat without the annoyance (for some). You have introduced 0 new abilities. So if you are correct in that their focus is Fel Rush, well at best it's design oversight. It's not a good thing when you take a class with only two specs then pigeon hole one of them into a certain spec because one of it's abilities is over tuned.

-This is further evidenced by the fact that Fel Rush has existed for at least 9 months publicly, for over a year at least internally, and was featured as core gameplay in the initial class reveal as Gamescon 2015.

So has Eye Beam. Hell even some of their rotational abilities that are used far more often weren't showcased then. This is just confirmation Bias. It COULD mean what you are saying it means, it could just as easily as not. Further doubt is cast by the fact that Fel Rush wasn't always rotational during beta and alpha.

-builds that ignore Fel Rush / Fel Mastery are up to 20% behind builds that include it (hint: Blizzard is indirectly telling you how to play the class properly here), and the only conclusion you can draw from this is that Fel Rush is completely and assuredly the reason that Havoc exists.


So...let me get this straight. You can make a build that ignores Fel Rush. It does 20% less damage. Making those other builds effectively pointless. Does this honestly sound like good design to you? They have given you options that aren't options. You think this is intentional? Then you sir paint Blizzard in a far more unfriendly light than myself. Personally I believe that this was a design oversight. That a more stationary build was intended to be in the game just not as good. But also not as garbage that it currently is. See it's all about perspective. I agree with the idea that Fel Rush SHOULD be higher. I disagree with the idea that Fel Rush should be rotationally required for every spec, even if Blizzard intended it. Because even if it is all intended doesn't mean it's good design.

The definition of variety and how it was used in that post are not synonymous. Variety is already provided by way of having 11 other classes to choose from.

And the fireball analogy is perfect and air-tight. Both are core rotational abilities.

No really keep believing this it's funny.

[Deleted]

And the fireball analogy is perfect and air-tight.

Lol... Not even close.

[ufta]

Seriously man this whole 14 page thread is the equivalent of this:
"I want to play affliction warlock. But I don't like DoTs though. Give me some talent options to make affliction lock a direct dmg spec"
"Uhh...maybe you should play destro lock?"
"I don't want to play destro lock. I want to play affliction lock but I want it to be different than it is now."

[Schizoide]

Seriously man this whole 14 page thread is people posting exactly what you just posted, like "this is just how it is" is an unassailable argument when it's not an argument at all.

[ufta]

Seriously man this whole 14 page thread is people posting exactly what you just posted, like "this is just how it is" is an unassailable argument when it's not an argument at all.

lol I just find it laughable in a game that contains 12 different classes and 36 different specs, people are raging because ONE of those 36 specs doesn't contain enough options to be played optimally 2 or 3 different ways.
"WE NEED MORE VARIETY" is the cry.
Dude......Blizz has already given us 36 flavors worth of variety. That's more flavors than Baskin Robbins, but it's STILL not enough for people. I don't get it.

Can we all just cut to the chase and just be transparent about our intentions here? Can we perhaps change the thread title to "I do not like using Fel Rush on rotation BUT DO NOT ASK ME TO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS BECAUSE OMG ILLIDAN!!1!11"

[Bullettime]

lol I just find it laughable in a game that contains 12 different classes and 36 different specs, people are raging because ONE of those 36 specs doesn't contain enough options to be played optimally 2 or 3 different ways.
"WE NEED MORE VARIETY" is the cry.
Dude......Blizz has already given us 36 flavors worth of variety. That's more flavors than Baskin Robbins, but it's STILL not enough for people. I don't get it.

Can we all just cut to the chase and just be transparent about our intentions here? Can we perhaps change the thread title to "I do not like using Fel Rush on rotation BUT DO NOT ASK ME TO PLAY ANOTHER CLASS BECAUSE OMG ILLIDAN!!1!11"

The problem with Havoc is more that variety in playstyle exists but the current tuning locks out all the options except a single preset path.

There's no need to actually change the design of Havoc, but tuning some knobs to allow some more variety hurts no one and benefits everyone. Example.

1. Nerf Fel Rush. Takes it out of the baseline ST rotation inherently and makes it more of an AoE and repositioning tool.
2. Buff Fel Mastery. Now those who want to do the dash and slash playstyle can pick up the super Fel Rush and continue on, unchanged.
3. Buff the "dead" talents. Give Blind Fury, Demonic, and Demonic Appetite a little nudge up. Not to push Eye Beam to being directly competitive but open the build up to being at least closer in performance, whereas Fel Rush build handily crushes the entire build in all types of encounters. At the very least, an Eye Beam centric build should be great at raw AoE. It's not.
4. Nerf Bloodlet. The synergy it has with Master of the Glaive and the Momentum playstyle push it up way too high and has it near single handedly propping up AoE/cleave on its own and eliminating Felblade and First Blood from contention on all types of encounters, even though those talents better fit the hyper mobility playstyle but no one is arguing to get buffed oddly enough.
5. Buff Blade Dance since it feels like shit to use and compensates some of the AoE loss from a Bloodlet nerf but spreads it across the spec.

Nothing in those 5 points, if done together, would hurt anyone while allowing us to take advantage of additional options in our talents that are intended to be actual choices. It's all tuning knobs. Momentum could stay on top along with Fel Mastery and Vengeful Retreat, but options would be present for the encounters where that style doesn't work or if people wanted to take a slight DPS loss.

[Hexxidecimal]

The problem with Havoc is more that variety in playstyle exists but the current tuning locks out all the options except a single preset path.

There's no need to actually change the design of Havoc, but tuning some knobs to allow some more variety hurts no one and benefits everyone. Example.

1. Nerf Fel Rush. Takes it out of the baseline ST rotation inherently and makes it more of an AoE and repositioning tool.
2. Buff Fel Mastery. Now those who want to do the dash and slash playstyle can pick up the super Fel Rush and continue on, unchanged.
3. Buff the "dead" talents. Give Blind Fury, Demonic, and Demonic Appetite a little nudge up. Not to push Eye Beam to being directly competitive but open the build up to being at least closer in performance, whereas Fel Rush build handily crushes the entire build in all types of encounters. At the very least, an Eye Beam centric build should be great at raw AoE. It's not.
4. Nerf Bloodlet. The synergy it has with Master of the Glaive and the Momentum playstyle push it up way too high and has it near single handedly propping up AoE/cleave on its own and eliminating Felblade and First Blood from contention on all types of encounters, even though those talents better fit the hyper mobility playstyle but no one is arguing to get buffed oddly enough.
5. Buff Blade Dance since it feels like shit to use and compensates some of the AoE loss from a Bloodlet nerf but spreads it across the spec.

Nothing in those 5 points, if done together, would hurt anyone while allowing us to take advantage of additional options in our talents that are intended to be actual choices. It's all tuning knobs. Momentum could stay on top along with Fel Mastery and Vengeful Retreat, but options would be present for the encounters where that style doesn't work or if people wanted to take a slight DPS loss.

Your post makes too much sense and is well thought out. We must die for this forum transgression of reason and thought.

[Nezia]

Seriously man this whole 14 page thread is people posting exactly what you just posted, like "this is just how it is" is an unassailable argument when it's not an argument at all.

But that's exactly what it is. What you guys are asking for in these 14 pages is a brainless version of a rogue spec with metamorphosis atached to it.

All the whining would make some sense if you had mained a dh for years and does not want to change classes because you invested too much time in the character who now is close to your sweet heart. But guess what? It is not! DH is nothing but that new character you are leveling and in the middle of the way you may notice that it is not what you had imagined, and that's fine, people usually move on to something else when this happens. The difference is that even noticing that, people still want to play the damn class no matter what because OMFG ILLIDAN!!!!!!!!!!

[Hexxidecimal]

But that's exactly what it is. What you guys are asking for in these 14 pages is a brainless version of a rogue spec with metamorphosis atached to it.

All the whining would make some sense if you had mained a dh for years and does not want to change classes because you invested too much time in the character who now is close to your sweet heart. But guess what? It is not! DH is nothing but that new character you are leveling and in the middle of the way you may notice that it is not what you had imagined, and that's fine, people usually move on to something else when this happens. The difference is that even noticing that, people still want to play the damn class no matter what because OMFG ILLIDAN!!!!!!!!!!

Not it's not. It realizing that an ability is waaay over tuned, to the point where it locks you out of any sort of meaningful talent choice. Ya know, something that people have been doing for years in this game, realizing something is broken and asking for a fix. Fel Rush as a base ability is too good, to the point where taking anything but other talents that feed into Felrush becomes a DPS loss that is to far out of line.

[Unforgivenn]

I like the Fel Rush playstyle, but i don't think that should be the most optimal playstyle. It's too stressful to keep playing with your position. When raiding starts, tehre will be lots more of complains about "i was felrushing the first 5 wipes, now i'm just tired and want a more simplier rotation."

or people fel rushing, aggroing a shitload of mobs and wiping the raid LOL

[Bullettime]

But that's exactly what it is. What you guys are asking for in these 14 pages is a brainless version of a rogue spec with metamorphosis atached to it.

All the whining would make some sense if you had mained a dh for years and does not want to change classes because you invested too much time in the character who now is close to your sweet heart. But guess what? It is not! DH is nothing but that new character you are leveling and in the middle of the way you may notice that it is not what you had imagined, and that's fine, people usually move on to something else when this happens. The difference is that even noticing that, people still want to play the damn class no matter what because OMFG ILLIDAN!!!!!!!!!!

No one is really asking for that though nor are people asking for the Fel Rush/Momentum build to be killed. That's why I personally don't understand the hostility, as someone who has defended both sides of the base argument. What some of us are asking for is merely for the alternative playstyle options that ARE present but are merely tuned too weak to be brought up to a better standing.

The Fel Rush build being king is fine. It's harder to play, more positioning dependent, and does fit the class fantasy a ton. The gap, however, shouldn't be as large as it currently is though and results in our entire talent grid not existing.

- - - Updated - - -

Also note that if Demon Hunters only have the single DPS specialization, they should be doing a bit more, tuning wise, to ensure that the couple varieties are least in a functional state. There are people who like the demonic bits like Eye Beam and releasing the inner demon. But Blizzard has both the super demonic fel elements and the dash and slash playstyles trying to exist within the same specialization, given the abilities they have and talents that intended to prop up the different playstyles and themes. It's just one certain theme's options are tuned too low to be considered at the current time.

TLDR: There is room for more than one playstyle to exist and Blizzard believes so as well or they wouldn't add the talents they did. They just overshot the mark when nerfing the previously massively OP Eye Beam build and have not done another tuning pass yet, which will be coming soon, admittedly.

[Not Againnn]

Seriously man this whole 14 page thread is the equivalent of this:
"I want to play affliction warlock. But I don't like DoTs though. Give me some talent options to make affliction lock a direct dmg spec"
"Uhh...maybe you should play destro lock?"
"I don't want to play destro lock. I want to play affliction lock but I want it to be different than it is now."

this is the thread. end it please mods. its bogus complaints about a core feature for a spec.

people cant wrap their head around the fact fel rush is and will always be a rotational ability.