Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Deleted]

@Vanyali. Comparing this guide to the icy veins guide from @wordup.

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/havoc-d...owns-abilities

Is throw glaive during Momentum really higher prio then Anniha?. And what about the opener. Do you use fbarr/throwglaive/FotI before you cast meta?

So far i have come up with the following opener:

Fel rush > racial/2x Demons bite for roughly 80 fury > VR > Fbarr (if chosen otherwise chaos blades) > FotI > Throw glaive (twice?) > meta > fel rush for buff > Anni till empty > normal prio list.

Yet i am not sure if this is the ideal opener.

[Mamut]

What should I do in momentum window? Its so short that Im able to use maybe 2-3 abilities, 2-3 chaos strikes or throw glaive + cs? Or something different?

When to activate Blur for two FR? On cd to not waste momentum from blur? I feel overwhelmed at start when I have VR ready + 2x FR + another two from blur. Its like wasting combo points on rogue :/

[Deix-EU]

@Vanyali. Comparing this guide to the icy veins guide from @wordup.

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/havoc-d...owns-abilities

Is throw glaive during Momentum really higher prio then Anniha?. And what about the opener. Do you use fbarr/throwglaive/FotI before you cast meta?

So far i have come up with the following opener:

Fel rush > racial/2x Demons bite for roughly 80 fury > VR > Fbarr (if chosen otherwise chaos blades) > FotI > Throw glaive (twice?) > meta > fel rush for buff > Anni till empty > normal prio list.

Yet i am not sure if this is the ideal opener.

No it obviously isn't cause FoTi and throw glaive don't benefit more fury or meta, the sooner passive damage, the better.
I do quite logically:
Fel rush >FotI > Thow glaive * 2 > build fury until the end of momentum > VR > Meta + Chaos Blade > 300k+ DPS

[wordup]

No it obviously isn't cause FoTi and throw glaive don't benefit more fury or meta, the sooner passive damage, the better.
I do quite logically:
Fel rush >FotI > Thow glaive * 2 > build fury until the end of momentum > VR > Meta + Chaos Blade > 300k+ DPS

Throw Glaive does benefit via the Haste allowing for additional casts, and FotI being delayed is a significant loss since it is absolutely the highest DPS-per-GCD regardless of if it benefits or not so delaying it is a major mistake, so I'd say you are wrong on both counts. Then again you seem to be focused on the opener, so it's agreed that using it (specifically in a situation where you will not need it for AoE in the next CD cycle) early is ideal.

@Mara403 Purely in the context of Metamorphosis/Throw Glaive (and not the opener):

You should be looking to cast it either A) being at 2 charges and capping due to MotG, or B) wasting the cooldown. Not using keeping TG rolling is a bad choice no matter what given how high the damage-per-GCD is, especially given that it now indirectly benefits from the Haste granted via Metamorphosis.

These are however very small and there are probably arguments for each (alongside gear profiles that will lean toward one or the other), but as far as I'm aware, wasting Throw Glaive uses even during Meta is a bad choice (since it's always assumed here we're using Bloodlet and Momentum).

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Icy veins saying satyr enchant for neck is top, is that true lol?

Satyr and Distant Army fight with each other as the best enchant in sims regularly. There is a big problem with Satyr that it will deal damage, but not be registered to a player (which means it rarely will be tracked in logs and meters) so it is difficult to attribute, but its damage is powerful. Distant Army however doesn't suffer this so will appear better, but from all I am aware of they are relatively equal and choice reigns right now.

[Deix-EU]

Throw Glaive does benefit via the Haste allowing for additional casts, and FotI being delayed is a significant loss since it is absolutely the highest DPS-per-GCD regardless of if it benefits or not so delaying it is a major mistake, so I'd say you are wrong on both counts. Then again you seem to be focused on the opener, so it's agreed that using it (specifically in a situation where you will not need it for AoE in the next CD cycle) early is ideal.

@Mara403 Purely in the context of Metamorphosis/Throw Glaive (and not the opener):

You should be looking to cast it either A) being at 2 charges and capping due to MotG, or B) wasting the cooldown. Not using keeping TG rolling is a bad choice no matter what given how high the damage-per-GCD is, especially given that it now indirectly benefits from the Haste granted via Metamorphosis.

These are however very small and there are probably arguments for each (alongside gear profiles that will lean toward one or the other), but as far as I'm aware, wasting Throw Glaive uses even during Meta is a bad choice (since it's always assumed here we're using Bloodlet and Momentum).

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Satyr and Distant Army fight with each other as the best enchant in sims regularly. There is a big problem with Satyr that it will deal damage, but not be registered to a player (which means it rarely will be tracked in logs and meters) so it is difficult to attribute, but its damage is powerful. Distant Army however doesn't suffer this so will appear better, but from all I am aware of they are relatively equal and choice reigns right now.

1) The op reasoning was opener
2) Seems like you say not to delay FoTI, what my opening doesn't do (unless AoE fight) since I'm doing it just after Fel Rush so don't know why I would be "wrong".
No logic.
3) I never understood and never will the "cap thing". A skill is better in priorities OR not. You do it by being out of GCD or because it's better not "because to risk cap". This is a false logic made of a poor axiomatic hypothesis. And, this one is tricky. Icy vein put it before even Annihilation. I'm not sure and will do more tests later on. I'm able to do throw glaive with momentum without "capping" because it's a much better GCD than merely everything else while I'm at "low" or not able to hit melee (which is often with the current content) fury which is the best way anyway. Fury starving is currently a big problem because the priorities make Throw Glaive spamming not generating much Fury.
4) I doubt haste on throw glaive would affect the opening. Sure, it allows you spam it more during meta but it's just a benefits, not a "to play around trick".

[iddqd]

@Deix-EU:

2) He doesnt talk opener here, but generally FotI in Metamorphosis, where it shall still be used above Annihilation.
3) You are right - to the point where WoW now has a lot of skills that have 2 ore more charges. So lets say A is better than B ("does more damage") and both spells have cooldowns. So you wanna use A>B. But if A uses a 2-charge-system, then you want to A>B when sitting at 2 charges, but B>A as long as A has < 2 charges as you have no advantage to use A right away (exception would be something like needed burst).

My question:

The suggested opener here says FBar, TG, FotI. Is there a reason why not FotI, FelBarr, TG so FotI can benefit from momentum a lot more?

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http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...m_dungeon.html

WQ trinket with versatility > crit? How come? Sounds suspicious...

[Deleted]

@Deix-EU:


WQ trinket with versatility > crit? How come? Sounds suspicious...

Right now my sim give me Vers very close to crit (im around 42% crit iirc).

I suppose vers gets better as your crit get higher.

[Deleted]

@Deix-EU:

2) He doesnt talk opener here, but generally FotI in Metamorphosis, where it shall still be used above Annihilation.
3) You are right - to the point where WoW now has a lot of skills that have 2 ore more charges. So lets say A is better than B ("does more damage") and both spells have cooldowns. So you wanna use A>B. But if A uses a 2-charge-system, then you want to A>B when sitting at 2 charges, but B>A as long as A has < 2 charges as you have no advantage to use A right away (exception would be something like needed burst).

My question:

The suggested opener here says FBar, TG, FotI. Is there a reason why not FotI, FelBarr, TG so FotI can benefit from momentum a lot more?

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WQ trinket with versatility > crit? How come? Sounds suspicious...

I would assume the FBar is prio over FotI in the opener is down to the way FBar works (Gaining stacks via damaging spells) so with some RNG u will gain Fel Barrage stacks from FotI damage where as if u use FotI first you wont.

[Deix-EU]

@Deix-EU:

2) He doesnt talk opener here, but generally FotI in Metamorphosis, where it shall still be used above Annihilation.
3) You are right - to the point where WoW now has a lot of skills that have 2 ore more charges. So lets say A is better than B ("does more damage") and both spells have cooldowns. So you wanna use A>B. But if A uses a 2-charge-system, then you want to A>B when sitting at 2 charges, but B>A as long as A has < 2 charges as you have no advantage to use A right away (exception would be something like needed burst).

My question:

The suggested opener here says FBar, TG, FotI. Is there a reason why not FotI, FelBarr, TG so FotI can benefit from momentum a lot more?

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WQ trinket with versatility > crit? How come? Sounds suspicious...

Indeed. As for the opening section, my answer was for the part:

"Fel rush > racial/2x Demons bite for roughly 80 fury > VR > Fbarr (if chosen otherwise chaos blades) > FotI > Throw glaive (twice?) > meta > fel rush for buff > Anni till empty > normal prio list."

Which is an illogical opener (build fury just after first fel rush and wasting seconds of FotI & Throw Glaive over a fight). But let's be honest, our GCD are long, there is not "much" benefit in position order ... just a common sense "in case of a fight would be a modulo 60 seconds duration ... xD

[iddqd]

I would assume the FBar is prio over FotI in the opener is down to the way FBar works (Gaining stacks via damaging spells) so with some RNG u will gain Fel Barrage stacks from FotI damage where as if u use FotI first you wont.

Alright. Then my suggestion would be: FelBarr, FotI, TG

[wordup]

1) The op reasoning was opener
2) Seems like you say not to delay FoTI, what my opening doesn't do (unless AoE fight) since I'm doing it just after Fel Rush so don't know why I would be "wrong".
No logic.
3) I never understood and never will the "cap thing". A skill is better in priorities OR not. You do it by being out of GCD or because it's better not "because to risk cap". This is a false logic made of a poor axiomatic hypothesis. And, this one is tricky. Icy vein put it before even Annihilation. I'm not sure and will do more tests later on. I'm able to do throw glaive with momentum without "capping" because it's a much better GCD than merely everything else while I'm at "low" or not able to hit melee (which is often with the current content) fury which is the best way anyway. Fury starving is currently a big problem because the priorities make Throw Glaive spamming not generating much Fury.
4) I doubt haste on throw glaive would affect the opening. Sure, it allows you spam it more during meta but it's just a benefits, not a "to play around trick".

I tried to state clearly that I was explaining how both are still beneficial to cast during Metamorphosis regardless of whether they "gain a bonus" or not, which was your initial assertion, which is what I was refurting. I don't know why but that's not relevant to the point of them still always being worth the global (outside of the very last 4 seconds of Meta in which you need to dump any excess Fury due to the cooldown ending usually within a TG cooldown cycle, but that's extra reading I thought was unnecessary for a very simple question posed).

Regardless of your doubt, it has already been proven that wasting charges (therefore potentially wasted uses of a spell) is significantly worse than keeping the cooldown running. This is simply because the longer you leave a spell on cooldown/capped charges, the more potential uses you burn up, and if the spell does more DPC than another (which TG+BL technically does due to the lack of Fury required) then lowering its priority underneath a spammable spell (since in the case of Annihilation, you have to weigh up the generation GCDs too alongside it, else there is no reason to burn time on Throw Glaive by using Annihilation first).

[Deleted]

@Mara403 Purely in the context of Metamorphosis/Throw Glaive (and not the opener):

You should be looking to cast it either A) being at 2 charges and capping due to MotG, or B) wasting the cooldown. Not using keeping TG rolling is a bad choice no matter what given how high the damage-per-GCD is, especially given that it now indirectly benefits from the Haste granted via Metamorphosis.

These are however very small and there are probably arguments for each (alongside gear profiles that will lean toward one or the other), but as far as I'm aware, wasting Throw Glaive uses even during Meta is a bad choice (since it's always assumed here we're using Bloodlet and Momentum).

Thanks for extra info, so to summ it all up: During Meta and the 4 sec of momentum keep fbarr foti and throw glaive on cd and then burn excess fury with Anniha.

[wordup]

Thanks for extra info, so to summ it all up: During Meta and the 4 sec of momentum keep fbarr foti and throw glaive on cd and then burn excess fury with Anniha.

Yeah that pretty much covers Meta usage succinctly.

[Deix-EU]

I tried to state clearly that I was explaining how both are still beneficial to cast during Metamorphosis regardless of whether they "gain a bonus" or not, which was your initial assertion, which is what I was refurting. I don't know why but that's not relevant to the point of them still always being worth the global (outside of the very last 4 seconds of Meta in which you need to dump any excess Fury due to the cooldown ending usually within a TG cooldown cycle, but that's extra reading I thought was unnecessary for a very simple question posed).

Regardless of your doubt, it has already been proven that wasting charges (therefore potentially wasted uses of a spell) is significantly worse than keeping the cooldown running. This is simply because the longer you leave a spell on cooldown/capped charges, the more potential uses you burn up, and if the spell does more DPC than another (which TG+BL technically does due to the lack of Fury required) then lowering its priority underneath a spammable spell (since in the case of Annihilation, you have to weigh up the generation GCDs too alongside it, else there is no reason to burn time on Throw Glaive by using Annihilation first).

The fact that a charge is wasted for a spell that worth it is an evidence. What I don't like is when it's taken as a "proof" with this sole assumption (being a charge). If the GCD doesn't worth it while you can do better at the time 't', the spell can stay at max charge we don't care. But here, we're speaking about a spell being more effective per GCD than every other or near so I really don't understand why my "opening" is bad:
1) FoTi soon
2) Throw Glaive ignite mode under momentum + BL soon
3) One or two Demon's Bite before end of momentum
4) VR + Meta + Chaos Blade

I don't know why you reviewed it as bad while the opener of the OP is clearly "build fury before FotI and Throw glaive" which I consider illogic and lack of efficiency.
Besides, we agree on the results so I guess it's more a qui-pro-quo situation unless you tell me this opening doesn't respect yours at icy vein (which it does - apart you don't write FoTI and TG in ST mode even if it's conditioned by having AoE in the next minute, I already posted a message ).

Regardless the "spam Throw Glaive", I find myself starving a bit in fury currently because you spend more GCD doing TG / Fel Rush / VR than anything else but this allows me to top charts with the impression I'm a "Glaive Thrower" between each momentum more than else ... Momentum is IMHO too short to get benefits from our main spender, chaos Strike. Don't know what's your opinion about this. T19 will help.

[Sefer]

How good is the 835 Six-Feather Fan compared to some of the top 840/850 trinkets in that sim?

Would like to know this, too. I just got a 835 drop and thinking about making some gold if there are "better" trinkets. Atleast I would prefer it because it also has no on-use (I simply hate it).

I have "The Devilsaur's Bite - 840" and "Memento of Angerboda - 825" at the moment

[ufta]

Right now my sim give me Vers very close to crit (im around 42% crit iirc).

I suppose vers gets better as your crit get higher.

I know that when people talk about stat weights, generally everyone is talking about ST, which honestly I consider kind of foolish given that most raid encounter are not ST.
To that end, I always run sims on multiple mobs in addition to ST to get an idea of how stats scale when additional mobs are introduced.

I'm running Fel Barrage, 841 ilvl, and on single target sims, vers is just a tad below crit, with haste a solid 3rd place and mastery being terrible.
As you add additional mobs, vers becomes the best stat (it's better than crit on 3 targets), and haste value plummets with each additional mob, becoming almost as bad as mastery on 5 targets.

[Zaak]

is The Devilsaur's Bite really that bad compared to other trinkets? I've tried it in an heroic instance and it was around 4-5% on singletarget bosses.

[Donovan4893]

Woo finally got my prestige appearance.

[Herbalplz]

Is there a resource on how to dps properly? I read the wowhead guide and man, I just suck. Did VH and was jumping around everyone trying to maintain momentum and pulled really shit dps. Really need to get it together since I gotta OS dps when I'm in friend groups with tank friends.

Like a video or something? Maybe I just need to practice more too. When do you guys use Meta, for trash packs or bosses?

[Deleted]

At what ilvl does the Six-Feather Fan have to be for it to be ahead of everything else? I've been trying to sim it but my numbers are pretty low with it until like 890 which makes me think I'm putting it in wrong lol