Ignore pain needs a SERIOUS nerf.

[Deleted]

It was very, very strong in HC and Mythic raid tests however I think they've nerfed it since then, it is still pants on head insane in mythic dungeons though. Watching streams of people wipe to pulls that barely tickle my health bar is hilarious. It's nice to be strong but frankly the rotation really is just maintain IP, Block at the right moments, keep Revenge and Shield Slam on CD and spam Devastate for Shield Slam resets. The only "technical" thing you need to look out for is Critical Blocks buffing your IP by 40% but that doesn't even need a weak aura due to the fucking huge-ass shields that spin around me like I'm some kind of ballet dancer.

My only other experience with tank specs is Guardian at the moment so they may all be this simplified but, and it pains me to say this, Ryan is partially right for once. We're just a DPS with aggro and damage reduction.

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IP does need a nerf. It does not matter that it would get relatively weaker in raids, because that is the case with the other tanks as well, except druid and pally.

Would you feel better if the absorb didn't count on HPS? I mean in reality we're blocking 30% to 60% of the damage we receive and that doesn't count towards HPS. Imagine if it did

[Ellianar]

Thing is that incoming damage in mythic raids will be enough to overwhelm the IP leaving a warrior tank with very little defenses (compared to other tanks) until they can get a new IP up. This will make warrior tanks very spiky to heal as they take very little damage while IP holds and then take a massive damage spike when IP runs out, and ask any healer and they will tell you that constant damage is much more preferred than spikes.

What kind of argument is that? It's like only warrios will be affected by greater incoming damage in Mythic... y'all need some logic. All tanks will get hit harder while conserving the same amount of mitigation/self healing, if something is OP pre raid it stays the same. If anything more damage taken equals more IP uptime with the extra rage. Who cares that you can't stack IP and that every boss swing obliterates it when you can have one IP up for each and every one of those hits ?

Also fucking loled at warriors suddenly going from most reliable tank to spikiest one. Like DH are so spiky already in MM dungeons but according to some kind of magic they'll become less spiky on raid bosses for some reason.

[Leih]

My only other experience with tank specs is Guardian at the moment so they may all be this simplified but, and it pains me to say this, Ryan is partially right for once. We're just a DPS with aggro and damage reduction.

Gotta disagree with this. If you're just mashing devastate between shield slam/revenge on cooldown, you're doing it wrong. But even still, arguing that the Prot Warrior rotation is too easy is pretty odd.

I've seen people in this thread say that other tanks have to work to use their mitigation and hold threat? What tanks are those?

All of the tanks were streamlined and pretty much all of them now perform a DPS rotation while hitting mitigation alongside it. That's how tanking plays now. At least Warrior has some depth from Vengeance, Dragon Scales and Intercept, and Warriors still struggle with some things that some other tanks find a total joke (no ranged interrupt/silence, no way of manually moving mobs through grips or knockbacks, no 'passive' aoe to pick up streaming adds). Strengths and weaknesses.

The only reason IP seems overpowered is because the way it scales is very flawed. It stacks up and up with each cast up to the cap, so as long as you're not being hit hard enough to clear the previous cast before you cast another, you become more and more invincible. As soon as you get to the point where the thing(s) hitting you are clearing your IP before you can get the next one up, it's no longer nearly so strong, and in fact Warriors start to feel pretty squishy compared to the other tanks whose mitigation scales with the damage you're taking.

The harder the content gets, the weaker IP will become, because it only scales with your stats and your rage income, and you'll no longer be able to stack it on itself.

If they want to nerf IP because it's too strong in 5-mans, which, yes, it kind of is, then they need to compensate in some other way, or we'll just be worthless in harder raids. Honestly, I'd prefer they redesigned the mechanic somewhat to make it scale up and down better, that's really the only way to balance it out.

[Deleted]

It's no way as good in mythic+ as some seem to expect it to be. IP will just be obliterated there and warriors wont be able to heal themself up and will rely lot more on healers. Who cares about mythic0 when its practically new heroic mode. For example death strike will scale better than IP because death strike heals more based on damage taken, so harder content = better death strikes where ignore pain doesn't scale up like that at all. It only seem really good now because its balanced around that even prot warriors are supposed to be able to do mythic 10+.

[Deleted]

It's funny how people in this thread try to make it seem like Ignore Pain is not OP, all absorb shields are OP, especialy shields that are 3times you're health. people tend to forget the Old Disc Priest during and Monks Guard.
But it's hard for Blizzard to nerf it without hurting the warriors, it's not a number problem it's a design problem imo.

[Arteezy]

Ignore pain provides an absorb (specific value, doesn't change relative to the attack damage).
Other forms of AM are percent reduction modifiers from damage (effectiveness scales with damage, more damage 'absorbed' from the DR).
With raid bosses doing more damage, the difference between the two changes drastically. As the damage per swing increases infinitely, a flat DR gains more increasing value. For example, 100k absorb vs 1% DR, in a time frame of 1 single melee attack. 100k swing vs 10mil swing.

1E5 swing:
100k absorb = 0 dmg taken
1% DR = 99k dmg taken

1E7 swing:
100k absorb = 9900k dmg taken
1% DR = 9900k dmg taken

This is obviously an oversimplified and exaggerated case to help you understand the logic. But hopefully it helps create an understanding of how the different tanking models will behave in different environments.

[Ellianar]

It's no way as good in mythic+ as some seem to expect it to be. IP will just be obliterated there and warriors wont be able to heal themself up and will rely lot more on healers. Who cares about mythic0 when its practically new heroic mode. For example death strike will scale better than IP because death strike heals more based on damage taken, so harder content = better death strikes where ignore pain doesn't scale up like that at all. It only seem really good now because its balanced around that even prot warriors are supposed to be able to do mythic 10+.

Death strike scales with damage taken something you want to avoid as a tank and gear (in the form of health pool). IP only scales with gear. IP is more reliable, still.

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Ignore pain provides an absorb (specific value, doesn't change relative to the attack damage).
Other forms of AM are percent reduction modifiers from damage (effectiveness scales with damage, more damage 'absorbed' from the DR).
With raid bosses doing more damage, the difference between the two changes drastically. As the damage per swing increases infinitely, a flat DR gains more increasing value. For example, 100k absorb vs 1% DR, in a time frame of 1 single melee attack. 100k swing vs 10mil swing.

1E5 swing:
100k absorb = 0 dmg taken
1% DR = 99 dmg taken

1E7 swing:
100k absorb = 900k dmg taken
1% DR = 900k dmg taken

This is obviously an oversimplified and exaggerated case to help you understand the logic. But hopefully it helps create an understanding of how the different tanking models will behave in different environments.

Except we have %DR in the form of blocking/Spell Reflection. IP is more akin to self-heals that heals for a % of health lost. And even then IP is more reliable because it's preemptive AM more than reactive.

[Deleted]

Death strike scales with damage taken something you want to avoid as a tank. IP scales with gear. IP is more reliable, still.

When you start doing harder content damage taken will go up lot faster than IP is able to scale up with gear. It's simply not balanced around trivial content like mythic0.

[Zka]

Some people in this thread seem to forget that IP DOES scale with damage taken. Warriors now generate rage based on damage taken and IP uses rage...
Warriors have a fair amount of base rage generation and therefore IP is really OP in low(er) damage situations.
I believe tanks are tuned with mythic raid encounters in mind.

[Ellianar]

When you start doing harder content damage taken will go up lot faster than IP is able to scale up with gear. It's simply not balanced around trivial content like mythic0.

Ok then Warriors are the worst tank ever. Must be why every guild is rocking one atm.

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Some people in this thread seem to forget that IP DOES scale with damage taken. Warriors now generate rage based on damage taken and IP uses rage...
Warriors have a fair amount of base rage generation and therefore IP is really OP in low(er) damage situations.
I believe tanks are tuned with mythic raid encounters in mind.

Yeah people don't get we'll be trading stacked IP for way more single stack IPs up for every boss hit.

[PassingBy]

The only change they should, probably, do is make it so that IP doesn't overlap and store up on one another.
The new IP overrides the old one.

And it won't be as crazy as it is now.

[Sarkol]

It's no way as good in mythic+ as some seem to expect it to be. IP will just be obliterated there and warriors wont be able to heal themself up and will rely lot more on healers. Who cares about mythic0 when its practically new heroic mode. For example death strike will scale better than IP because death strike heals more based on damage taken, so harder content = better death strikes where ignore pain doesn't scale up like that at all. It only seem really good now because its balanced around that even prot warriors are supposed to be able to do mythic 10+.

No it won't. Seen plenty of Mythic plus 10 etc Prot Warriors, and they're just as ridiculous there as they are now. They just don't take any damage.

[Leih]

The only change they should, probably, do is make it so that IP doesn't overlap and store up on one another.
The new IP overrides the old one.

And it won't be as crazy as it is now.

Well I mean then it's just Shield Barrier... which was an awful ability.

They'd either have to increase the absorb of a single shield to be much much higher to be worth using, or else it'd be horribly weak.

[Keenclaw]

I am not saying Ignore Pain needs a nerf. I do want to see how it works in raids and my co tank is warrior. I play guardian btw.

But you should accept this, Blizz wanted that tanks ALWAYS need healer even in dungeons, so they can not carry by themselves like in previous expansions. Prot warriors now goes against this concept. Tanks should not be alive after their survival CDs finished. That is why Guardian Mastery nerfed to ground, because having too much HP meant not needing healer. Prots are OP in this regard, please accept it.

OS prot warrior, with no artifact trait on his weapon (ilvl ~835), tanked whole mythics (except Nightfallen ones and Maw of Souls) with disc priest healer.

Would I say OP? No. But needs adjustment? Yes.

[PassingBy]

I am not saying Ignore Pain needs a nerf. I do want to see how it works in raids and my co tank is warrior. I play guardian btw.

But you should accept this, Blizz wanted that tanks ALWAYS need healer even in dungeons, so they can not carry by themselves like in previous expansions. Prot warriors now goes against this concept. Tanks should not be alive after their survival CDs finished. That is why Guardian Mastery nerfed to ground, because having too much HP meant not needing healer. Prots are OP in this regard, please accept it.

OS prot warrior, with no artifact trait on his weapon (ilvl ~835), tanked whole mythics (except Nightfallen ones and Maw of Souls) with disc priest healer.

Would I say OP? No. But needs adjustment? Yes.

Warrior won't be able to finish a mythic dungeon without a healer.
I am sure as hell it is not possible.

And in a heroic if the dps are not too shit I don't need a healer as a DK too.

[Deleted]

Hard to say. IP trivializes content you overgear, heavily skewing the perception on it's effect. Outside of IP, warriors are very squishy, which becomes apparent in fights were damage intake exceeds the absorbs you can pull out of your arse.

[Ellianar]

Hard to say. IP trivializes content you overgear, heavily skewing the perception on it's effect. Outside of IP, warriors are very squishy, which becomes apparent in fights were damage intake exceeds the absorbs you can pull out of your arse.

Tanks are squishy when you take out their main active mitigation ? What a surprise.

[Grishnaar]

I never thought people would ask for a nerf of some class if it's PvE related. Unless it's truly gamebreaking.

I mean, we're playing together xD

[Deleted]

Tanks are squishy when you take out their main active mitigation ? What a surprise.

Yeah, you're right about me stating the obvious here. That said, the rest of the kit IS quite a bit behind other tanks in defensive value. Heavily nerfing Ignore Pain without quite a bit of compensation would likely turn Warriors utterly unviable.

[Ellianar]

Yeah, you're right about me stating the obvious here. That said, the rest of the kit IS quite a bit behind other tanks in defensive value. Heavily nerfing Ignore Pain without quite a bit of compensation would likely turn Warriors utterly unviable.

The rest of the kit is behind because the spec is built around that, talents and artifact tree both. So yeah Blizz should be careful on nerfing IP and on how they do it.