[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

Lol you're calling Nemmar out? Are you serious? You're the guy who said we are completely fine aside from mobility right now which is total bullshit. You've proven you don't know what you're talking about in here at least have the decency to not bother other posters with your misinformation. Good AoE doesn't come at higher levels buddy, I don't know what you're waiting for. We weren't good at AoE on beta with a full artifact so unless we get buffed nothing has changed.

I think you need to take advice from your own words. You said ret is completely fine aside from mobility which isn't even remotely correct. Our AoE is lackluster, our cleave is lackluster and our ST is okay. If you don't even know what you're talking about don't bother other people who do.

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There's the post I'm referring to. You clearly have no understanding about ret and where we currently stand. That bolded part alone shows you have absolutely no clue what's going on.

i call out every idiot, that doesnt has the decency to prove his statements.
his statement was: Crusade is irrelevant on live, HW has no use.
ur lack of reading comprehension is just embarrassing and proves ur predisposed position vs me (which would be entertaining if u wouldnt spread misinformation)

to AoE: beta...

i wont quote all those ignorant threads where u, Nemnar and other whined about rets overall low damage on beta.
even the sims before 8/24 buffs proved them wrong (ret medium), but u still kept insisting.
thats what is called ignorance - to ignore hard fact, usually childs tend towards such misbehavior.

now - wonder what 2 weeks post release ret surprisingly has decent ST damage, but still an AoE issue? U HAVENT EVEN MAXED CASHBRINGER.
btw - i dont have this issue, i outburst every tank in my guild or pugs, without having Casualbringer maxed. itz also a matter of relict setup, but it shouldnt be.

me will always observe these threads to guarantee u and the like dont misinform pl looking for intel/help.
what i dont get is: what is the profit of such irresponsible behavior? think straight before answering:
if u have no clue, what is ur loss listening to facts, hm? in reality u will gain a better speccing, rotation etc.?
cuz with ur DP spec u wont get a slot in most progress raids, cuz u deserve it.

even Solsacra just guessed... these guesses r, what is gimping up ret again.

[Taeldorian]

@Avenging Wrath If you think you're actually coming in here with "facts" to set people straight you are doing the exact opposite. It's quite obvious we aren't good at everything except for mobility, anybody can realize that but yet you still think everything is good except for mobility.

If you want proof go try to find a sim that has us doing good AoE or cleave. Shit our ST isn't even on top it's middle of the pack. So you coming in here and setting people straight is a contradiction to what you're actually doing. It's very obvious with each of your posts, nothing you say has any evidence to back it up nor do you provide any.

It's extremely obvious that you have no clue what's going on. You said we are good at everything except for mobility. That statement alone shows me you have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry but that's that.

Oh, and you mentioned childish behavior. The statement you made in your post about "coming in here and setting idiots straight" is extremely childish. Classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Either way I'm not going to waste any more time responding to you. Just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about so people don't follow your misinformation and spread it.

[Vuagnon]

Judgment increases all damage done by x% for y sec
BoJ becomes the cleave, hitting 2 targets and increasing the radius of Divine Storm by 50% for x sec


Zeal: 2 charges. Zeal increases haste and critical strike chance by 5%. Maximum 3 stacks.
Greater Judgment: Judgment generates 1 holy power and always deals a critical strike against targets above 50% health.
Virtue's Blade: Blade of Justice generates 3 holy power
Blade of Wrath: Stays the same except hitting 3 targets
Divine Vengeance: Divine Storm requires 2 holy power and has a 20% chance to cast for free

[Taeldorian]

@Storm the Sorrow Actually I agree with you fully aside from the crusade part. I completely forgot that we even have consecration because I never choose it. I don't even look at it, it just can't compete with the other talents. It should absolutely be baseline, I think that would be really helpful in terms of passive AoE.

Nice post btw.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I tried DH and I hated it.
Nearly double the CD and it feels like a wet noodle.

I recently changed to GJ too and it feels awesome.
I run to a couple of mobs, press Judgment and watch them all lose 30% of their HP.

IKR?

Still not there?
I got it last weekend, it really makes a difference.

I started playing only this week, so taking my sweet time and dealing with ridicilously retardedly goddamned long load-derp-phase-moments between locations/HStones/whatnot
Got War to 105 and just dinged 106 on my Ret.
And hey, there is also a whole fething World of Warships aswell, not to mention RL placing it's own limitations

Well I hope it does.
Will have to figure where AtA fits into rotation though.

True, we really need something.

How about this:
1. Consecration is baseline, only used on 3+ mobs for damage.
2. The talent makes it empowered: It grows in damage the longer the mob stays in it making it viable for ST.

Nice!
How about two little addendums:
1) is affected by mastery
2) halves duration and cd while damage done stays the same/slightly higher

Or how about a copy from Protpals: while standing in Conc, CS hits all enemies and buffs next DS.

Eh, one can dream

Good, I prefer the new Storm.

This Storm is never gone.

I don't want to think about Arenas, BGs and Dragonslaying as of yet, do not want to ruin slivers of positiveness I'm gaining from Legion currently


P.S. Avenging Wrath, would you please kindly cut it out with your Engrish?
And get a clue, you fether.

[Deleted]

Consecration is nice if you run divine hammer and zeal because you end up with spare globals with that setup. And considering our divine storm damage is utter wank until like artifact level 29, it sorta makes sense it would be a decent option now. If your willing to give up the 10% TV damage for single target in dungeons.

[Vanderhuge]

If anything, the Blade of Wrath change should just be baseline and made available to all three talents. Divine Hammer with that CD reset would be amazing. Big thing that still bothers me is that current, usable talents are being changed for some reason. Why not Holy Wrath? Why not rework the entire 75 tier? Why not just make Seal of Light a passive movement speed bonus?

If I had any creative control, I'd move talents around a bit. Something like this:

• Consecration removed, replaced with Greater Judgment (this improves finishers and works in this tier)
• Greater Judgment replaced by Blessed Hammer, a pure AoE version of Crusader Strike
• Don't change the 60 tier, just give the CD reset to the baseline Blade of Justice
• Replace Word of Glory with Divine Intervention (Leads to this being a defensive option tier)
• Replace Divine Intervention with Pursuit of Justice (flat move speed, creates a movement utility tier)
• Replace Holy Wrath with the Judgment cooldown. For the hell of it, we'll call it Judge, Jury, Executioner (Now an AW vs. sustained DPS tier)

You want to go full single target? Go nuts. You want to be an AoE machine? Again, go nuts. Want a bit of column A and column B? You get the picture.

[Snegovik]

so when will this "new" crusader go life? next server restart ?

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Artifact-wise I'm taking the long route to AtA obviously, w/o respec, slowly making my way one step at a time.

I would strongly advise you get A2A 1st, asp for PvP or Rare/Elite mobs it is a must, asp if you pvp :P, i lost count how many times pulling 5 Hp into hoj/JV/ashes/JV saved my butt in 2s and allowed me 1v2. Also A2A provides a nice aoe burst in Dungeons and also it gives you SLOW it is a must thing to get my friend. just go short way then save up APs to respect long way once you saved up enough

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As for Crusade, I understand the hate for it in pvp which is why Im not discussing it in terms of pvp. There's nothing to discuss since it's a pretty weird and big hit to pvp I think.

I think new crusade will be very OP in PvP, cuz atm hunters/mage gives us soooo much headache due to kitting, also when bursting 2x melee, its sure thing will be nice nice burst. I am actually very excited, i might dust off my Ret (atm benched him @820 ilvl only =(, and playing my DH)

[Sinister Knight]

I seriously don't understand all the hate being spewed in a DISCUSSION Forum. Ret AoE that I've seen is perfectly fine, DS isn't shit, people need to get over themselves and really quit bitching.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I seriously don't understand all the hate being spewed in a DISCUSSION Forum. Ret AoE that I've seen is perfectly fine, DS isn't shit, people need to get over themselves and really quit bitching.

I would maybe probably kinda agree with you(in another reality) if I didn't just create a DH an hour ago.

I never knew AoE till that point.

If you can compare Ret AoE and DH AoE and call Ret's one "perfectly fine", then quite possibly you are either a fething hypocryte or an intellectually challenged individual

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

I would maybe probably kinda agree with you(in another reality) if I didn't just create a DH an hour ago.

I never knew AoE till that point.

If you can compare Ret AoE and DH AoE and call Ret's one "perfectly fine", then quite possibly you are either a fething hypocryte or an intellectually challenged individual

Maybe he is only in normal dungeon runs with the low pack. Rogues, DH, Hunter with barrage, and then you got Ret.

[Taeldorian]

I would maybe probably kinda agree with you(in another reality) if I didn't just create a DH an hour ago.

I never knew AoE till that point.

If you can compare Ret AoE and DH AoE and call Ret's one "perfectly fine", then quite possibly you are either a fething hypocryte or an intellectually challenged individual

Well let's be fair here, I agree with you 100% but DH AoE is getting nerfed as they said. It's also suppose to be their strongpoint as they said, again, in that blue post.

So comparing ret (strong point ST and maybe cleave) to a DH whose strongpoint is AoE is a bit weird. DH is getting nerfed though so we'll see.

But you can take ret AoE and compare it to anything else and it's still lackluster, so whoever said our AoE is fine needs to go back to his actual class forums because this obviously isn't it.

Edit: @Sinister Knight Just stop. Please. Taking your own numbers that you pull compared to other randoms in your group isn't fact, and it doesn't show how we are actually doing. Our AoE is objectively terrible and you can figure that out by using sims or any calculations you really want. It's right there for you to see.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean if you decided to chose an AOE build, it feels horrible and clunky. That should not be the case but I think that argument has been made already.

[Deleted]

wtf? how dare u come here with 0 verification, stating such complete crap? gtfo!
all sims prove Crusade superior 4 PvE, eg: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html

Crusade>DP on live, i usually smile when daily hc pug is with procardin, cuz time to shine!

btw
Holy Wrath is clearly designed 4 PvP, as defensive vs tunneling. it works fine.
u rlly r embarrasing.

like most pl crying 4 AoE burst, that didnt pay attention to Casualbringer Tiers. AoE burst is to come at the later levels, which is not optimal design.

You need to learn how to read. I was talking about design, not performance. It's what happens when you drop in on the conversation half-way.

In terms of the design of our toolkit crusade doesn't add anything relevent. It's just AW on steroids. AW itself already suits that purpose. The new crusade modifies it to have new uses.

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So after copying my paladin over to PTR (Armory Link: WoW Progress reports me as one of the highest geared ret paladin atm) I can honestly say I very much hate these changes atm.

The new Crusade just isn't a single target damage boost anymore, over the alternative of vanilla Avenging Wrath and Divine Purpose. The new Crusade is however a fantastic cleave talent, that can be made into a fantastic AoE talent when also taking Greater Judgment, but it's single target application just pales in comparison to our current iteration of Crusade on live.

I should add, my PTR Crusade tests were done with an 845 Horn of Valor and a 30 second Crusade to sync up to it, thanks to artifact pathing and 1 relic slot. Even with +2825 strength during the whole Crusade window, I was still pulling less single target DPS then I do on live with the same setup.

The Blade of Wrath change is actually a DPS increase as far as my limited testing is showing on the target dummies. However alongside the changes to Crusade somewhat forcing us back into Divine Purpose, this leads to a spec where we are now watching for 3 proc's and failing to press the right button leads to a lot of DPS loss.

Needing to watch for Fires of Justice proc, Blade of Wrath proc and Divine Purpose proc while rewarding when executed properly, feels like ass when you miss a proc or delay a proc when a better proc happens just before you activated another skill. Which when juggling 3 proc's happens quite frequently.

The fact that our 4 set also adds a fourth proc, this spec very well might become a complete RNG lotto that will have zero consistency from boss to boss.

By the way... you are exagerating when you say we need to watch for 3 procs. You don't need to watch for Fires at all. You don't lose it even if you were to stack up 5 HP. Your finishers will light up if you have enough HP to use them at 2 HP. So, there really is nothing to track on fires, except for recreational purposes.

Its just DP and the BoW procs wich are straight forward. Just keep BoW on CD. Though i confess the rotation is already convoluted. This doesn't come in to help, but lost by 100 lost by 1000. At least the depth makes it rewarding.

I'm glad to see procs come back. We have always had procs and it's historically part of our gameplay. The reactiveness and making the right decisions at the right time was what made me enjoy the spec so much. I never agreed with the QQ. People exagerated because of the foundry tier set.

[Ramiell]

I'm just wondering why Retribution doesn't have any baseline AoE that doesn't require a target or ramp up. If I am not mistaken, all of the other melee specs do. Maybe we will get consecration back baseline next expansion pack.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't mind procs, just not so many that it's all we do. Heck I don't mind the Blade of Justice proc, just make it baseline instead of a talent.

[Meebo]

The generalised stat weights on the front page, are they still up2date?

[Snegovik]

Well I hope it does.
Will have to figure where AtA fits into rotation though.

For the limited PvE that i did, i just pull 5 HP, then HOJ KT JV/A2A/JV this is on a regular Elite NPC (non-boss)

For PvP i pop wings/judgement/hoj/A2A/JV (most ppl will trinket the moment they see ur wings) hence they will die in ur 2nd stun, just pull 5 HP, then hoj/JV/A2A/JV and they will die or get as low as 10% hp.

Also i use A2A blindly if i know feral/rogue near me, to stop their opener by getting them out of stealth, but this is risky since u can waste it

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Well let's be fair here, I agree with you 100% but DH AoE is getting nerfed as they said. It's also suppose to be their strongpoint as they said, again, in that blue post.

So comparing ret (strong point ST and maybe cleave) to a DH whose strongpoint is AoE is a bit weird. DH is getting nerfed though so we'll see.

DH won't get nerf a whole a lot, they are looking at lvl 110 aoe talent (FB) and maybe maybe adjusting bloodlet, but DH still will be one of the best @ aoe, here is the blue post quote "Havoc Demon Hunters (mainly Fel Barrage). Those specializations will still excel in that area, but will not be so clearly dominant over their peers."

[Alindra]

I'm currently running FV-GJ-Stunzz-BoW-JV-DI-Equalolity(Cause I'm PvPing even while Dragonslaying).
I feel like taking Zeal won't improve AoE that much, and I dislike it over GJ for some reason, and TFoJ is not overly attractive,but what about DH? It slows HoPo generation sure, and sucks for solotarget and WQuesting, but I would like to hear your opinions anyway, guys.

I'm not happy with any of the T30 choices, to be honest. I like the flow of Fires of Justice the best (the shorter cd and proc really help with fluidity), but it means we're stuck with only DS as our AoE, which sucks. The shorter cooldown can also be wasted during periods where we have have a HP glut (DP procs & Wake of Ashes). Greater Judgment certainly helps while questing and for mass AoE, but it feels shitty for cleave and Mythic dungeons. I don't like if for Cleave because it already hit 2 targets (extra targets wasted) and it devalues crit (if it crit without the auto-crit, then it was "wasted," in a sense). I've primarily been running with Zeal because it has been the most versatile. It beefs up CS's baseline damage, it can crit, and it can cleave... but it does leave me wanting with dead spaces.

That tier wouldn't annoy me quite so much if it was as easy to respec as it was in WoD.

But the issue is with the mechanics.

< snip >

I guess there goes my point:
We need something else baseline in AoE department, besides DS.
I can't figure out what specifically, but I'll get there, eventually.

I'd take it a step further and say that we need something to mitigate target swapping. It's absolutely infuriating to have to decide what to do with full HP and Judgment off CD when adds are spawning in say 4 seconds. Use Judgment / HP and not be full when the add spawns? That leads to slower swapping on priority adds. Hold off and do nothing? Leads to an overall dps loss. We have the same problem when the add dies and we have to swap back to a boss. Add in the possibility for large movement to reach the add (and you probably don't want to waste Divine Steed because it's needed to avoid fire) and you have one of my biggest sources of frustration.

Actually, when I was first reading the Crusade changes I got really excited because I initially thought it was going to be an additional spell like Seraphim with a moderate duration / cd. It would help with target swapping because we would have Judgment available more often. It would help our "mobility" because we could deal more damage from range while closing the distance." It would help with our AoE (even without Greater Judgment) because we could cast Judgment on enemies other then our primary target without the debuff falling off. Then I realized that it was a replacement for Avenging Wrath. Boo. (Seriously, lose the stacking damage buff, give it a 15/30s duration/cd or something and I'd be stoked. Probably still OP, but I really like the idea.)

I haven't tried it, but I suspect I"ll miss the reliability of the current iteration of Blade of Wrath.


[edit: Speaking of Crusade, how is the cooldown reduction on Judgment calculated? When it says reduces the CD by 75%, does that mean it's down to 3s with 0% haste (12 * (1.0 - 0.75)), or does it mean 6.857s (calculated the same way as haste, so 12 / 1.75)? I'm guessing it's the former?]

[Deleted]

So happy that they are reworking Crusade and Blade of Wrath, instead of usefull talents like Virtue's Blade, Seal of Light and Holy Wrath

Its great to have the new Crusade. 0% Haste= 3 sec Judgment CD = max 9 Stacks = 27% DMG Buff, should be better than 35% over the full duration, the old Crusade (61% dmg+ haste Buff over 20sec+ ) looks like nothing against this well designed new talent!