Why blizzard nerfed TANKS AOE damage when its the lazy dps fault

[Revi]

Why do your buttons matter less just because your overall contribution is lower ?

With a metric to focus on and excel in it went like this:
Damage: do everything right, and you could contribute significantly to beating enrage timers, burst phases, adds. The raw numbers variation from a good player to a bad player was enough to swing a close fight.

Threat: do everything right, and your whole raid could do more damage. You didn't directly contribute to the damage yourself, but you made it possible for the rest. The variation from a good to a bad tank was huge, and rewarding.

Healing/mitigation: do everything right, and you'd survive things other tanks wouldn't or allow your healers to keep other members of the raid alive or avoid them going oom. The raw number variation from a good to a bad player was enough to be significant.

With all 3 responsibilities further shifted away from tanks, it feels more like this:
Damage: Total contribution is low, so raw number variation from a good to a bad player is much less noticeable and thus much less frequently a factor in the success of the group.*

Threat: totally irrelevant. No skill curve what so ever. No room for improvement, nor reward.

Healing/mitigation: the impact of your choices are reduced, the raw numbers(relative to others) contribution is reduced thus less impact. Where skill could previously allow a good tank to survive and a bad one to die, in many cases you're now at the mercy of your raid to ensure your survival for you. Skill is rewarded at a lower rate, and overall less impactful in your survival.

The more the power of influence is shifted away from you, the less your buttons matter. That is not to say skills does not make a difference both in damage and mitigation/healing, but it means that the window where good tanks succeed and bad ones fail grows smaller.
You can substitute that lack of power of influence in those metrics with specific fight mechanics that must be mastered instead, but frequently tank mechanics are mostly black and white. You either avoid the wipe mechanics or not. You either press your mitigation CD for the burst or don't. You either tank swap or don't. There is much less nuance and thus less room for skill to distinguish in raid mechanics compared to things like damage, healing/mitigation and threat.

There's a sense that neither damage or healing "belongs" to tanks. Damage should be dps' specialty, healing should belong to healers. Tanks lost their own(threat), and have been bouncing between which one of those they're allowed to encroach on. Having tanks just be positioning punching-bags works, and it's fun for everyone else, but it's not fun for tanks themselves. That's bad design.

*If damage is scaled down to not be competitive with damage dealers.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Having tanks just be positioning punching-bags works, and it's fun for everyone else, but it's not fun for tanks themselves. That's bad design.

Sadly this is what bad DPS players want.

[Apsychicrat]

Thats because you are casual then

No, he is a tank, enjoying the main gameplay of tanking, positioning mobs and mitigating damage. being a tank isnt about your DPS numbers. Blizz could balance fights out to be the exact same if a tank did 0 damage. they simply need to account for that fact. the appeal of tanks isnt insane damage, its being in control of the big bad. if your playing a tank for their damage output you should change to DPS

[Tart]

That's a pretty weak argument.

Whats weak about it? If tanks are out dps'ing DPS then what purpose is there in DPS?

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't TBC, keeping threat is not a mechanic in the game.

Once again what is the point in DPS if a tank is out dps'ing them? Would you also prefer tanks to out heal, healers for the full house?

Tanks can top the dps meters while tanking, but put growl on your pet and they are up in arms about it.

[shonist]

Im prot paladin and Veng DH. Pally was fucking OP lol. i wanted a nerf myself, its just hilarious to hit like a train with 1 button.

[Tart]

Sadly this is what bad DPS players want.

Erm isnt that the point in a tank? If you want to DPS then play DPS.

Im really struggling to understand what you want other then it all.

[cFortyfive]

Damage: Total contribution is low, so raw number variation from a good to a bad player is much less noticeable

The number in total might have less digits but the difference is still just as noticeable when you are getting 50% more out of your class than the supposedly bad player.

And that is simply not true, no matter how often you shout it out.

Don't even want to know mental gymnastics you have to perform to convince yourself that dealing the exact same damage as a damage dealer on top tank survival doesn't make you the most powerful specs.
From previous experience I am aware your guild doesn't seem to have the brightest minds on board but please come on at least be honest.

[Revi]

The number in total might have lesser digits but the difference is still just as noticeable when you are getting 50% more out of your class than the supposedly bad player.

Yeah, but the difference that skill level makes to the raid is lower the lower your damage output is. So if we're talking progression (killing an add or a boss in time, for example), the window where your skill makes an impact at all shrinks. You can look at logs of other tanks and feel better about your performance, but if your skill doesn't impact the success of your raid much, it's still going to suck.

[Deleted]

TDon't even want to know mental gymnastics you have to perform to convince yourself that dealing the exact same damage as a damage dealer on top tank survival doesn't make you the most powerful specs.

You are kind of a special one, aren't you? Nobody claims to do the same dmg as a DD.

[cFortyfive]

but if your skill doesn't impact the success of your raid much, it's still going to suck.

Well but luckily we know that tank skills are still important since nuking an add is hardly their sole responsibility.

You are kind of a special one, aren't you? Nobody claims to do the same dmg as a DD.

I am not going to point out all the posts asking for 80% + including your own. 20% depending on overall balancing can easily overcome lower tuned damage dealing specs.

[Revi]

Well but luckily we know that tank skills are still important since nuking an add is hardly their sole responsibility.

Absolutely. But then it comes down to fun. If positioning is a tanks only significant measure of skill (not even going to count taunting on set intervals), then that's incredibly boring. Dps and healers also have to deal with positioning but you'd never hear a dps say that them trying to deal as much damage as possible is just a secondary chore compared to the blast they have moving out of circles on the ground.

[cFortyfive]

Absolutely. But then it comes down to fun. If positioning is a tanks only significant measure of skill (not even going to count taunting on set intervals), then that's incredibly boring. Dps and healers also have to deal with positioning but you'd never hear a dps say that them trying to deal as much damage as possible is just a secondary chore compared to the blast they have moving out of circles on the ground.

well your positioning as a damage dealer also rarely impacts the raid significantly. That said if dealing as much damage as a damage dealer or close to it is the only thing contributing fun to the role I'd consider just rolling a mage.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Once again what is the point in DPS if a tank is out dps'ing them? .

Tanks do not outDPS equally geared/skilled DPS and their DPS will only fall behind further the more AP DPS get into their artifact.

Please learn how the game works, not that it matters, uninformed players get the game ruined for people by whining forever.

This expansion is going downhill REAL fast. Do they not learn from their previous mistakes of listening to whiners?

[Saracens]

Please keep the discussion clear of flaming, and on topic.

Thank you.

[Nakotsu]

From a blue post on the frontpage: "tanks should be very sturdy and effective at killing things, but too often their damage output rivals that of pure damage dealers"
Has nothing to do with lazy dps underperforming.

all the dps im with always doubles my DPS on the meters. I hover at 100-120k they hover at 200-210k...

[Revi]

well your positioning as a damage dealer also rarely impacts the raid significantly. That said if dealing as much damage as a damage dealer or close to it is the only thing contributing fun to the role I'd consider just rolling a mage.

It's not the only thing, but it's one thing. My point is that we need something that can excel on that also feels like it matters. "Competition" of some sort is needed.

With threat it was simple. We had our own metric just like damage dealers and healers had. We competed against dps, but not in a way that interfered with the dps vs. dps competition.
With damage it was a competition on damage, trying to learn fights and your class to squeeze out dps.
With healing/mitigation, we didn't compete against players but against the environment. Boss, add, AoE damage. Get good enough and you could survive it with less gear than other tanks (without needing a superiorly geared raid to carry you).

If threat is gone, the damage competition is taken away from us and our survival placed primarily in the hands of the healers, it get's boring. We need something.

[bubbadubba]

I'm Ret and I can't keep up with DH's.


I know, I know. The spec is amazing and I'm just "bad".

Really bad when a healing spec beats the pure dps spec for a class.

[Raugnaut]

Yeah no I had a DH tank yesterday in Mythic VH pulling 220k dps as a tank on bosses. That's a problem. He was top DPS on those 4 man elite squad AoE pulls with 450-500k dps. My unholy AoE spam was only topping at 430k. Nothing to do with lazy. Back in Wrath tanks did like... maybe half the dps that dps specs did. Not 80-90% of the damage the dps did.

Yea, but tanks also had much more survivability. Now all the survivability is gone. Just wait - in two more expansions, you will no longer have tanks. Everyone will be a dps, or a healer.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Really bad when a healing spec beats the pure dps spec for a class.

They don't?
Unless every fight in WoW is a 30s ST fight.

[Laqweeta]

Yeah no I had a DH tank yesterday in Mythic VH pulling 220k dps as a tank on bosses. That's a problem. He was top DPS on those 4 man elite squad AoE pulls with 450-500k dps. My unholy AoE spam was only topping at 430k. Nothing to do with lazy. Back in Wrath tanks did like... maybe half the dps that dps specs did. Not 80-90% of the damage the dps did.

You also had to watch your threat back in Wrath, remember Omen Threat Meter? once in a blue moon on retail does a Tank ever lose threat