Protection legion Discussion

[Danin]

Can someone explain to me logically why versatility is better than haste?

Your survival depends entirely on how big and how often you can get your IP's/shield block up. How does a flat % damage reduction help with that? Compared to more IP's/Shield blocks? A minor flat % reduction does nothing to help you in clusterfuck situations, compared to shorter CD's on your abilities. What am I missing?

IP's "double dips" on versatility. The shielding-per-rage scales with versatility's damage scaling, and the amount of damage you take is reduced by versatility which also effectively makes your shields bigger. As you said, your survival depends on how big your IPs are, and versatility produces the biggest (effective) IPs per point.

[Brost]

IP's "double dips" on versatility. The shielding-per-rage scales with versatility's damage scaling, and the amount of damage you take is reduced by versatility which also effectively makes your shields bigger. As you said, your survival depends on how big your IPs are, and versatility produces the biggest (effective) IPs per point.

Does Ignore Pain count as a heal? It might triple dip in that case.

[Bethrezen]

Does Ignore Pain count as a heal? It might triple dip in that case.

It doesn't heal you. Stop trolling.

[Deleted]

Can someone explain to me logically why versatility is better than haste?

Your survival depends entirely on how big and how often you can get your IP's/shield block up. How does a flat % damage reduction help with that? Compared to more IP's/Shield blocks? A minor flat % reduction does nothing to help you in clusterfuck situations, compared to shorter CD's on your abilities. What am I missing?

80% Shield Block Uptime is also not that helpful, when your boss uptime is only 50%.

Versatility also buffs you inspiring presence healing

[flzk]

what neck enchants are our offensive and defensive options? atm i have the pure mastery one but i dont know if the armor procc would be better

[Deleted]

It doesn't heal you. Stop trolling.

Yes it does. The game counts it as healing. Thats why it double dips. Versatility increases the size of Ignore Pain because it increases the size of heals.

Does Ignore Pain count as a heal? It might triple dip in that case.

I think you misunderstood what Danin meant by versatility's damage scaling". Versatility scales Damage Done and Healing Done by X%, and reduces damage Taken by X/2%. That "Damage Scaling" effects Ignore Pain because Ignore Pain is a heal. It doesn't scale based on your damage done, the only stats that increase it are your Attack Power (thus Mastery) and Versatility.

[Celadir]

Versatility also buffs you inspiring presence healing

Does it really? I've never even thought to look or consider the relationship versatility would have with it.

[Deleted]

Does it really? I've never even thought to look or consider the relationship versatility would have with it.

It's healing that's attributed to you, as a funfact it also heals you with leech but it's pretty minimal and irrelevant (Since it's a pretty low number, 3% of 200k DPS is only a wooping 6k Heal/s at 100% leech, more realistically it'd be like 3% of heal as global healing and at 10%Leech (because it's not something you'll be getting easily or tons of, so I feel 10% is a good aprox with nice rolls on gear) it's a measly 0.3% of damage as healing to yourself on 200k dps it doesn't even break the 1k HPS on you). Denote: I used 200k because while I know it's low, it's easy to calculate and visualize, it's still a pretty meaningless number with higher damage still.

Presence I feel it's a bit "weak" (in a sense not of "Lolplsreplace >" but more of a meh talent line that doesn't have much real consequence in your general playstyle other than safeguard and is just 'nice' stuff for you or your party) in general and i prefer the autonomy I get from impending victory.

[Deleted]

80% Shield Block Uptime is also not that helpful, when your boss uptime is only 50%.

Versatility also buffs you inspiring presence healing

There are no fights in EN I can see where tanks are afk for 50% of the fight.

And 100% uptime on Block seems pretty major for mythic+. I still don't really see how a % less damage taken on your IP shield outweighs 100% uptime and more rage/faster rage generation + more dps output + more/faster threat gain/less waiting for abilities to handle streaming in mobs. Just seems weird to me that the more challenging/active playstyle is the worst?

And Inspiring Presence isn't effected by vers is it? Since it's based on a flat 3% of damage dealt by players.

[AanvilGT]

There are no fights in EN I can see where tanks are afk for 50% of the fight.

And 100% uptime on Block seems pretty major for mythic+. I still don't really see how a % less damage taken on your IP shield outweighs 100% uptime and more rage/faster rage generation + more dps output + more/faster threat gain/less waiting for abilities to handle streaming in mobs. Just seems weird to me that the more challenging/active playstyle is the worst?

And Inspiring Presence isn't effected by vers is it? Since it's based on a flat 3% of damage dealt by players.

In raids you will have two tanks, and with tank swap mechanics you will frequently be able to cover almost all blockable attacks with only 70-80% shield block uptime. Nobody is suggesting you will be afk, but in many raid encounters haste's increase to shield block up-time will be wasted.

The stat weights favoring versatility were generated from AMR sims posted on page 146 of this thread. AFAIK the sims did not significantly consider dps or threat generation as a relevant factor. If you want dps over mitigation, haste is your best stat (after strength). If you look at the numbers, the total damage absorbed by Ignore Pain is by far the largest portion of our overall damage reduction. Versatility and haste have roughly equal contributions to ignore pain. A 1% increase to IP size is roughly equivalent to the increased rage spent and dragon scales procs on IP gained from haste. However, the damage reduction portion from vers was actually very significant in the sims, as it is always on and applies to all sources of dmg including magic dmg, and substantially outweighed any comparable increase to shield block uptime gained from haste, even on fights where that SB uptime is relevant. The AMR sims thus value versatility more than twice as much as haste for total damage reduction.

Many contributors to this thread have made strong arguments that the AMR sims do not adequately take into account damage smoothing and player control gained from haste. Simcraft results posted show haste's mitigation and smoothing value far closer to the mitigation value of versatility, but there is an ongoing debate as to the importance of several known bugs in the simcraft results. Until the bugs are fixed, you will have to decide for yourself.

[Deleted]

In raids you will have two tanks, and with tank swap mechanics you will frequently be able to cover almost all blockable attacks with only 70-80% shield block uptime. Nobody is suggesting you will be afk, but in many raid encounters haste's increase to shield block up-time will be wasted.

The stat weights favoring versatility were generated from AMR sims posted on page 146 of this thread. AFAIK the sims did not significantly consider dps or threat generation as a relevant factor. If you want dps over mitigation, haste is your best stat (after strength). If you look at the numbers, the total damage absorbed by Ignore Pain is by far the largest portion of our overall damage reduction. Versatility and haste have roughly equal contributions to ignore pain. A 1% increase to IP size is roughly equivalent to the increased rage spent and dragon scales procs on IP gained from haste. However, the damage reduction portion from vers was actually very significant in the sims, as it is always on and applies to all sources of dmg including magic dmg, and substantially outweighed any comparable increase to shield block uptime gained from haste, even on fights where that SB uptime is relevant. The AMR sims thus value versatility more than twice as much as haste for total damage reduction.

Many contributors to this thread have made strong arguments that the AMR sims do not adequately take into account damage smoothing and player control gained from haste. Simcraft results posted show haste's mitigation and smoothing value far closer to the mitigation value of versatility, but there is an ongoing debate as to the importance of several known bugs in the simcraft results. Until the bugs are fixed, you will have to decide for yourself.

Okay but in practice sustained damage taken over the entire course of a fight from all sources isn't important compared to your ability to handle damage spikes/boss abilities. Your ability to handle a sudden spawn of adds or a sudden tank death and so on.

If you can't get shield block up or you're rage starved at the wrong time it's going to cause a major problem. Taking a few more % damage from all sources isn't going to cause a problem comparatively.

[Aiqe]

Okay but in practice sustained damage taken over the entire course of a fight from all sources isn't important compared to your ability to handle damage spikes/boss abilities. Your ability to handle a sudden spawn of adds or a sudden tank death and so on.

If you can't get shield block up or you're rage starved at the wrong time it's going to cause a major problem. Taking a few more % damage from all sources isn't going to cause a problem comparatively.

Being rage starved or not having shieldblock charges for abilities which require you to put up shieldblock are not stat created problems, though. Rage starvation maybe so, but iirc 1% haste "only" equals around 0.4 to 0.6% more rage dependant on encounter.Please correct me if im wrong on that.

edit: spelling errors

[AanvilGT]

Being rage starved or not having shieldblock charges for abilities which require you to put up shieldblock are not stat created problems, though. Rage starvation maybe so, but iirc 1% haste "only" equals around 0.4 to 0.6% more rage dependant on encounter.Please correct me if im wrong on that.

edit: spelling errors

This is true if you are comparing haste to nothing, but not necessarily for haste to versatility because versatility also reduces our RFDT.

Using the AMR sims with 4000 of each stat as an example. 4000 versatility will give you 10% versatility, yielding a ~5% flat damage reduction. That flat damage reduction is reducing your rage from damage taken. If you swap that 4000 versatility out for haste, you will gain approximately 12.3% haste. You will lose the flat damage reduction along with the resulting loss to RFDT. You will also reduce your cooldowns and gain approximately 6% rage from casting more shield slams. Overall, you will gain about 10% rage compared to a versatility build.

[Alaexaender]

Okay but in practice sustained damage taken over the entire course of a fight from all sources isn't important compared to your ability to handle damage spikes/boss abilities. Your ability to handle a sudden spawn of adds or a sudden tank death and so on.

If you can't get shield block up or you're rage starved at the wrong time it's going to cause a major problem. Taking a few more % damage from all sources isn't going to cause a problem comparatively.

But at the same time, most damage spikes are not blockable abilities. Of course, another possibility is you keep multiple sets, and swap in vers/mast focused stuff for some fights, and haste for others.

[booi]

Do we have the actual apl and boss profiles for the sims that generated the stat weights in this thread? I'm having trouble replicating the same results.

[Deleted]

80% Shield Block Uptime is also not that helpful, when your boss uptime is only 50%.

Versatility also buffs you inspiring presence healing

This is not how uptime works. If you have 50% uptime on shield block and 50% time of tanking a boss it doesn't mean your SB will up 100% when you are tanking and cooling down when you swap. That would be the case if the time spent on boss was equal to the duration of SB. Besides with Anger Managment, Vengence being one of the best defensive talents you want as high of uptime as you can since SB increases the crit chance of Shiel Slam by 20%/25% with a relic making ultimatum proc, saving you rage and getting those IPs up faster and making your Shield Slam hit the boss like a train made of trucks on a nitros boost. Not to mention blocking gives you armor and bigger IPs from the artifact.

[Leih]

Am I the only one who feels like if the stats are this close that it generates this much back and forth debate, they're probably so close that neither direction is the wrong answer?

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who feels like if the stats are this close that it generates this much back and forth debate, they're probably so close that neither direction is the wrong answer?

stats aren't close if you believe the sims. if you go check on askmrrobot rightnow they rate vers like 4x stronger then haste. but that sim doesn't use a smart rotation like a player would, so does it represent reality?

[Shieldarm]

stats aren't close if you believe the sims. if you go check on askmrrobot rightnow they rate vers like 4x stronger then haste. but that sim doesn't use a smart rotation like a player would, so does it represent reality?

I'm pretty sure Marok showed actually using the Dev > Rev rotation, like it should be. It was a few pages back, though.

EDIT: I double checked. It does indeed not just use Revenge willy nilly, instead fishing for procs.

[Leih]

stats aren't close if you believe the sims. if you go check on askmrrobot rightnow they rate vers like 4x stronger then haste. but that sim doesn't use a smart rotation like a player would, so does it represent reality?

But like you just said in your post, the sims don't use quite as smart a rotation as a player would so the stats are probably much closer in reality. In practice, no one is seeing a huge difference in performance. Vers for sure gives stronger shields and more effective health over all, while haste gives you more rage, more control and less prone to spike damage.

What I mean is, both seem pretty close in practice when used in realistic play. I think either style is pretty viable, and whichever is "better" is probably not going to be by a significant amount, and will largely be determined by playstyle, and your healers.

So while hardcore theorycrafters will no doubt be real eager to know exactly what weights should be given, I think in practice for majority of players you're not really going to go wrong with either route. Just don't stack crit or stamina