Day1 of raid - "know the fights" required

[MatthewOU2015]

You can watch all the videos you want and read all the guides but you need actual experience to learn the fights. You learn the fights through trial and error. Lol at players that think reading a guide or watching a video is all it takes.

[unfilteredJW]

The problem is that so called "serious" raiding guilds take themselves far too serious than they actually have to. Sub rank 200 guilds are theorycrafting and stating demands that are far higher than let's say top 50 guilds in the world have. Yet they stumble when it comes to raiding.

We jokingly call this the "Infinite Mediocrity": those most average tend to want more to help bridge the gap between their skill and the content. The top is beyond this and the casuals are having too much fun to care. We see the same thing here on the beach from people that aren't rich enough to be at the top and not poor enough to be poor.

[babyback]

Back in TBC, all the high end raiding guilds I was in (they all cleared the bosses before the nerfs, including sunwell, which was a thing) had a strict "no spoilers" policy, so they could came up with their own strategies (I've seen people being kicked from the guilds for spoiling the raid).

Stating that people who want to be in groups which learn the encounters on the spot is laziness is not having a clue about things. requesting people to spoils themselves is not being grand or elitist, it is sheer laziness from people who cannot afford to wipe a few time and think by themselves and are only in for the loots.

The general rule was, if you got the world first you didn't release the kill video until another guild beat it.

[Eleccybubb]

I'm gonna watch a walkthrough of zelda before I play it.

Comparing a single player game that doesn't affect other people to one where you will be raiding with between 9-29 other people. Genius.

[Bigbamboozal]

What's wrong is people like you are too lazy to look up the fight on youtube and watch a short video, or at least google and read the strats.

How can we fix it? By you knowing the god damn fight.

I'd argue you're more of a problem to my perception of enjoying the game.
He's not saying he's going for world firsts or anything.
Mediocre players demanding top level effort aren't fun. Or skilled.
If you watch a how to vid, you're already mediocre at best, given that you are watching a video and weren't in beta testing the mechanics and writing a guide/making a vid of your elite-sauce guild figuring everything out.
So given that, what's wrong with a group going in and learning it?
Gotta take the fun out of everything and behave caustic and hostile about pixels we already know you're mediocre at best about?
yah bud...real fun.
Why experience anything, just watch the vid.
That's a major issue facing the next gen of gamers.
I know it because my son who's 8, thought that when playing games you had to constantly talk and explain the process as you go. I asked him why he was doing that, he said "that's what the walkthrough videos do", which he'd be as happy just watching as actually playing.
To me, it seems like "watch the videos" might have it's own complications to bring to our hobby.
Besides that, I don't want to raid with some mediocre that only knows to move here and there then, because the video said so.
I want to raid with mediocres who can see why, and understand it.
Even if that's because we wiped on it once.
You know...play the game, maybe experience it a bit.

[PenguinChan]

The problem is that so called "serious" raiding guilds take themselves far too serious than they actually have to. Sub rank 200 guilds are theorycrafting and stating demands that are far higher than let's say top 50 guilds in the world have. Yet they stumble when it comes to raiding.

People look at Method/Serenity or whatever they are called nowadays and think what they are doing is the standard and require that from their own raiders.

Honestly if a raiding guild is trying to be that hardcore they really aren't going to achieve anything. Modeling yourself after literally the best players in the world for raiding is not a healthy atmosphere. Their raiding atmosphere is already toxic as shit at top guilds too, so I don't understand why anyone would want to partake in it. To each their own though, everyone learns sooner rather than later that it tends to not work out and the guild fall out is real over an expansion.

Topping it off with being called lazy and entitled because you want to play a game rather than repeat steps someone else taught you to do.

It's pretty unfortunate that wanting to figure things out for yourself is such a taboo thing in gaming today. I mean yeah, having the resource available so you don't tear your eyes out for not being able to progress, sure -- but jesus it's like everything needs a dictionary of every ability, and a video explaining every nuance.

Comparing a game that doesn't affect other people to one where you will be raiding with between 9-29 other people. Genius.

To be fair if you're at a respectable skill level, you most likely could go into a Normal difficulty raid (especially LFR), and wing it all. Probably would do just as well or learn as quickly, if not better because you aren't waiting for things you only read about, not actually happening. But of course, people learn differently than others. Doing rather than reading and waiting is pretty effective at teaching people what to do, especially if they know the type of mechanics being thrown at them.

[unfilteredJW]

I always wondered about the chicken-and-egg issue there.

As in...are those people focused SO MUCH on little tiny issues of stats and item level and shit because they're just poor players and desperate for any perceived edge? Or are they so focused on those things that it actually gets in the way of their play and ends up holding them back?

I just think people's egos are so fragile that the thought of temporary failure terrifies them, so they will go through any lengths to avoid even one misstep. Even shame those that just fucking play.

[Sodia]

Obvious troll is obvious..... Guys are you this stupid??? Cant you see that this is an Troll post ?? From the start to the end??

[Deleted]

I agree with OP.

"wipe and learn" has become "watch youtube and complain if people don't pull off FATBOSS strat after 3 tries."

its a bit sad.

[Eleccybubb]

I agree with OP.

"wipe and learn" has become "watch youtube and complain if people don't pull off FATBOSS strat after 3 tries."

its a bit sad.

Not really. It shows people optimal ways of doing a fight so their time isn't probably wasted. I see no issue with watching a guide. If you refuse to watch one and are the cause of wipes in a raid then maybe you should. I watch guides because I don't want to be the cause of a wipe and get yelled at by other people for wasting their time. Especially when we raid with 25-30 on Normal/HC.

[Ham on Rye]

I play in a semi-hardcore guild, and by that I mean we push to clear Mythic content, but not in a hurry or anything. With that said, we're also not elitist and no one is rude to each other. However, even in Heroics, we expect our raiders know what they need to do. We don't explain fights before the pull, we discuss strategy and how it's going to die. The attitude that "I want to learn on the fly and waste twenty other peoples' time and gold" is weak and indicative of lazy. It's this new generation of gamers that want the spoils without the effort, and in their defense they've labeled it "elitism" when it's really just plebs not wanting to put the effort in. Fact is, raids often contain sweet rewards that require coordination and preparation by the larger part of a group. I can't reasonably expect twenty-five people to carry five people who have zero idea what they're doing for the sake of the fight feeling novel. We're gonna be in here frequently, and novelty is irrelevant.

If learning on the fly is your sentiment, I think LFR is the place for you. Know the fights.

/inb4 "ur such elitist bro"

This ^ ^ ^

[Deleted]

Not really. It shows people optimal ways of doing a fight so their time isn't probably wasted. I see no issue with watching a guide. If you refuse to watch one and are the cause of wipes in a raid then maybe you should.

This presumes that the point of playing is to kill the boss and get loot, and not learn how to do things for yourself.

Fair play, its a very common thing to believe that point of raiding is fast kills with no fuss but its not the only way to play and something has indeed been lost in the process of losing the process. You are saying that playing the game is a waste of time, and that's a shame to me.

[Chain Chungus]

This is a stupid expectation that kills RPG and fantasy. It's like watching all the spoilers you can about a movie you really want to see before going to see it: pointless.

WoW is a game not a freaking second job.

[xhisors]

There is two sides of the coin here.

1. People are expected to know fights to clear, get gear, and progress through the dungeon as quickly as possible with as few mistakes as possible.
2. Learn the fight as you see it for the first time. Which really has a better experience for each user and it creates an "epic" feeling of fighting a huge threat. But takes longer.

The down side to number 2 is WoW is very punishing for dying in a fight. Other MMO's that have a raid system have ways to get back into the fight that is still going on. While in WoW if people die its over. I think that has pushed groups to know fights before hand so that you won't die to mechanics and you have an idea of what they look like before the encounter.

[Eleccybubb]

This presumes that the point of playing is to kill the boss and get loot, and not learn how to do things for yourself.

Fair play, its a very common thing to believe that point of raiding is fast kills with no fuss but its not the only way to play and something has indeed been lost in the process of losing the process. You are saying that playing the game is a waste of time, and that's a shame to me.

Never said that all. You can learn by playing but if you alone are causing wipes and pissing off a bunch of other people it isn't going to end well. I see no issue with going in and learning by doing I just think guides are better imo.

[Tharkkun]

Topping it off with being called lazy and entitled because you want to play a game rather than repeat steps someone else taught you to do.

If every raid took those guides as the absolute only way to do a fight no one would progress. They are there to give you a basic understanding of the fight.

You use the guide to understand, asses your raid makeup and then try what you think will work best. That's why we'll have threads here soon saying the Fatboss guide is stupid as hell and you should do it this way.

[Sansnom]

maybe people want you to actualty show you give a shit and look up how to do the fights? how is anything wrong with the community?

Hm. People complain about the game being "easy" and "no sense of discovery" that "gear is handled on a plate". Yet people expects others to already know what the boss will do, how to counter its ability. Move to A. Interrupt B. Watch for C. Pick up D etc.

Are we playing a game or simply following a "How to kill boss blah in 10 easy steps" instruction video?

Would we play a single player video game this way? Read all there is know about the game, the most optimal way to get the gear? No? Then why do we play WoW this way?

[Video Games]

I'm gonna watch a walkthrough of zelda before I play it.

I know you're just a dumb zombie, but those aren't multiplayer games.

[Deleted]

Never said that all. You can learn by playing but if you alone are causing wipes and pissing off a bunch of other people it isn't going to end well. I see no issue with going in and learning by doing I just think guides are better imo.

I see no reason why lots of wipes and learning would piss people off, unless ofc they shared your view that bosses should be killed asap and playing the game wasn't very interesting.

Personally I do the guides and watch vids etc but I can see how people who did it the other way have lost something they liked.

[babyback]

Not really. It shows people optimal ways of doing a fight so their time isn't probably wasted. I see no issue with watching a guide. If you refuse to watch one and are the cause of wipes in a raid then maybe you should.

As someone who's been playing since vanilla I'd say you learn a fight faster coming up with your own guild strat other than going after an already made strat. That's how we did it back then kids. Don't get me wrong I also think you should know the basics of a fight before going in. But by doing it as Fatboss does for example makes it very unintuitive for a player and it might be harder to pull off.

That's why I think the PTR is important. It doesn't matter what skill or goals you have as guild, you should always try and get a few people trying fights out on the PTR. Because it's there you really learn how a fight work and you come up with your own way to do it.