Basic income experiment in Kenya goes awry

[belfpala]

I think, the way it should work is there should be basic income that is given to every adult (if not to every person period) no matter what, and the job income they can get simply is added to it. This way people will have an incentive to work, as they will be much better off then - and, at the same time, temporary, or even permanently not having a job or not being able to work, won't be a misery sentence.

"Living wage" here is $12.61. That's about $25,000 assuming 40 hours per week, with two weeks off.

Average rent is about $900 per month. That's about $11000 per year. Average food cost is over $21 thousand per year for an average family. Is that where we should be?

[Endus]

"Living wage" here is $12.61. That's about $25,000 assuming 40 hours per week, with two weeks off.

Average rent is about $900 per month. That's about $11000 per year. Average food cost is over $21 thousand per year for an average family. Is that where we should be?

I'd argue that yes, the basic income stipend should be enough to amount to a living wage. That's a modestly comfortable living, but one short on luxuries.

Sure, that's a lot more spending per capita, but you also step up income taxes and such to offset that; there's no reason for much progressive tax bracketing if you've already covered for hardship through the basic income stipend, so you can start that tax rate at 15-20% at the first dollar earned, or step it up even further.

Just as a for-instance, looking at a salary of $40k in New York, your effective tax rate ends up around 25%, when combining state and federal taxes, so your net income ends up just over $30k, going by the first tax calculator Google coughed up. A Basic Income Stipend of $20k, plus an effective tax rate of 60%, and the same $40k/year job, means your net income is $20k plus 40% of the $40k, or another $16k in income. So a net income of $36k. A net increase of $6,000/year, despite the effective tax rate more than doubling.

And bear in mind that basic income is VERY easy to administrate, and effectively replaces a wide range of other programs, which are ALL much more complex, so your overhead on spending actually goes way down, too.

[May90]

"Living wage" here is $12.61. That's about $25,000 assuming 40 hours per week, with two weeks off.

Average rent is about $900 per month. That's about $11000 per year. Average food cost is over $21 thousand per year for an average family. Is that where we should be?

Well, I don't think basic income must necessarily be enough for average quality of life. Its function, at least, should be to support people, to make them less dependent on the immediate employment. So people could spend time finding a job they really want, not go after the first available offer, just to not starve to death.

A super-rich country like the US though... I'm pretty sure setting basic income at $25k is doable. It would also support businesses, since they wouldn't have to pay as much to their employees as before and can invest more money in self-growth.

[Theinquisition]

Since the population as a whole, through democratic process, determines governmental policies, basic income is as much people's choice as gifting your friend is your choice.

I think, the way it should work is there should be basic income that is given to every adult (if not to every person period) no matter what, and the job income they can get simply is added to it. This way people will have an incentive to work, as they will be much better off then - and, at the same time, temporary, or even permanently not having a job or not being able to work, won't be a misery sentence.

a few quotes that I think are valid here

1. "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent
the government from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

2. "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by
letting the Government take care of him,
better take a closer look at the American Indian."

3. This Forum could use a lot of this “I have never understood why it is ‘greed’ to want to keep the money you’ve earned,
but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money.”

- Thomas Sowell

Annnnd, most importantly

4."The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize
they can bribe the people with their own money."

- Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–1859)

[Deleted]

You've never left your country have you? It is very easy to believe.

The story is hardly surprising. That part of the world is deeply distrustful of charities for some very good reasons. Apart from the associations with imperialism, charities and government programs tend to have quotas on sterilization and other creepy shit that is well meant but terrifies people.

This will have no bearing at all on what happens in a modern country like Finland.

I mean i understand his point. even if you traveled to other contries. Africa is One, if not the poorst region. 1 Dollar would be a lot in lots of contries but it is probaly best ot see in the extrem. And i do think it is Crasy. 1 dollar can mean that much.

[Dezerte]

a few quotes that I think are valid here

1. "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent
the government from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

2. "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by
letting the Government take care of him,
better take a closer look at the American Indian."

3. This Forum could use a lot of this “I have never understood why it is ‘greed’ to want to keep the money you’ve earned,
but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money.”

- Thomas Sowell

Annnnd, most importantly

4."The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize
they can bribe the people with their own money."

- Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–1859)

Corruption in the government seems to be more your issue. Because all of these quotes can be applied to literally everything the government provides (police, roads etc).

[May90]

a few quotes that I think are valid here

1. "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent
the government from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

2. "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by
letting the Government take care of him,
better take a closer look at the American Indian."

3. This Forum could use a lot of this “I have never understood why it is ‘greed’ to want to keep the money you’ve earned,
but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money.”

- Thomas Sowell

Annnnd, most importantly

4."The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize
they can bribe the people with their own money."

- Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–1859)

Different people have different opinions. Sowell's quote is weird though, since the talk isn't about taking someone else's money, it is about giving collective money to those in need - collective money being taxes. It is not about "I want to have basic income", it is, rather, "I want those who need it to have basic income". Personally I am very well off as it is, but, say, my neighbor, who is a single mother with two kids and a minimum salary job, could use some help.

Also, the world changed pretty significantly since the times the US economical system was built. The country has become extremely wealthy (in terms of net gain per capita), and people can afford much more governmental spending than in the past.

[Super Kami Dende]

$30 a month? Jesus, I felt my $5k a month felt less than adequate.

[Logwyn]

A pure basic income system doesn't have a cutoff. If the basic income stipend is $20k/year, to have a nice round number, then you could, in theory, see an unemployed person getting that $20k, and the multi-billionaire getting the same amount.

In other systems, like the Mincome that Canada experimented with, it tapers off at $0.50 for every $1 earned, so working for any amount of time is always a net gain to the worker.

Is this 20k a year per person or household? Do I have to have a job to get the money? If its each person gets 20k a year. Then honestly I'd see no reason to work other than to keep busy. My current situation I'd like like a king if me and the spouse got 40k a year with out working.

What's the incentive to work if you are handing someone "free" money.

[Sacrelis]

Just communism in another name. Nothing wrong with it, I think communism has been demonised too much and has merits to it, just that past communist countries gave us not much to be joyful about. Might work out in the future, since capitalism can grow on top of it.

Still, there is a difference between receiving something as a trial, and planning your life around it. I am sure the people whose has received food stamps the majority of their life knows.

[May90]

What's the incentive to work if you are handing someone "free" money.

It is getting higher income. Just as the incentive to advance in your career is getting higher income. If you are content with having 40k a year, then cool; while you are sitting at home doing nothing, someone else will work and generate 80k a year instead.

Frankly, if you only work to not die to starvation and wouldn't work otherwise, then, perhaps, you shouldn't oversaturate the job market and, instead, let someone who actually wants to work do it. Quality of work is much higher when one actually wants to work and does it by their free choice, than when they are forced to work a job they hate.

[Flarelaine]

I don't get why conservatives in the US are skeptical of socialism, the only evidence they have to back this skepticism up is the entire 20th century.

Some of us live in countries where socialism was a major step forward. Admittedly it was not sustainable past four or five decades, but it vastly improved living standards and gave access to decent healthcare and education to most of the population - meaning that while it ran out of money, it built human capital.

[Endus]

Is this 20k a year per person or household? Do I have to have a job to get the money? If its each person gets 20k a year. Then honestly I'd see no reason to work other than to keep busy. My current situation I'd like like a king if me and the spouse got 40k a year with out working.

Per person. Children (or rather, their parents on their behalf) get a significantly reduced amount.

No, you don't need a job; the entire point is to REPLACE needing a job.

What's the incentive to work if you are handing someone "free" money.

The same incentives that cause anyone to look for promotions or better-paying work above introductory wages;

1> Improving your income level
2> Self-fulfillment in work you find engaging
3> Pride in your work
4> Need to fill your time with some purpose
5> Desire to improve your lot in life
And so on.

That you can say "fuck it" and not work is fundamental, because it means the labor market becomes a free market again; employers can not rely on desperation and unemployment to guarantee that some poor sap will take their awful job offer, because it's better than suffering. Awful jobs would have to offer compensation and conditions good enough to offset that awfulness. That's a good thing.

Just communism in another name.

There's nothing "communist" about basic income.

[Logwyn]

Per person. Children (or rather, their parents on their behalf) get a significantly reduced amount.

No, you don't need a job; the entire point is to REPLACE needing a job.

The same incentives that cause anyone to look for promotions or better-paying work above introductory wages;

1> Improving your income level
2> Self-fulfillment in work you find engaging
3> Pride in your work
4> Need to fill your time with some purpose
5> Desire to improve your lot in life
And so on.

That you can say "fuck it" and not work is fundamental, because it means the labor market becomes a free market again; employers can not rely on desperation and unemployment to guarantee that some poor sap will take their awful job offer, because it's better than suffering. Awful jobs would have to offer compensation and conditions good enough to offset that awfulness. That's a good thing.

You make good points. Currently I'm rounding and I know its not 100% accurate. I assume you'd have to pay taxes etc. This would be roughly 31k a year or about 2500 a month. The 1k a month in utilities, food, etc would be covered. I could save another 1k a month. Shoot just work enough to cover another 500 and have 1k to blow on hookers and beer. *Wife approval of course" At 15 bucks an hour. I'm down to a 10 hour work week. Where do we sign up for this?

A little joking in the above of course. Almost sounds like retiring in your 30s-40s.

The major question is how is it paid for?

[Endus]

You make good points. Currently I'm rounding and I know its not 100% accurate. I assume you'd have to pay taxes etc. This would be roughly 31k a year or about 2500 a month. The 1k a month in utilities, food, etc would be covered. I could save another 1k a month. Shoot just work enough to cover another 500 and have 1k to blow on hookers and beer. *Wife approval of course" At 15 bucks an hour. I'm down to a 10 hour work week. Where do we sign up for this?

A little joking in the above of course. Almost sounds like retiring in your 30s-40s.

The major question is how is it paid for?

Higher income taxes, basically. If you're getting, say, a $20,000 basic income, then your actual work income's on top of that, so if you make $40,000 in the USA right now, your after-tax income is somewhere around $30k in most states (I ran a tax calculator last time, it was almost bang-on, adjust for your specific state accordingly, it won't make any significant difference to the point). That's about a 25% tax rate, effective, split between state and federal.

Bump that to 60%, and your after-tax work income is now $16,000, on the same $40,000 salary. Seems bad, right? You're forgetting the Basic Income. You get that as an "extra" $20k, for a net take-home of $36k/year, about $6k more than before.

Your tax load goes from $10k to $24k, which is ALMOST enough to cover your BI stipend all on its own, you'll notice; you're that $6k ahead. People making more than $40k, obviously, end up paying more, and offsetting that gap.

When you consider the broad savings in not paying for the complicated social support networks that currently exist (and largely, their administrative costs, since determining if people qualify/for how much/etc is a constant and ongoing expense, whereas BI is just "you're alive? Here's your check", the whole thing ends up being quite affordable, and leads to a boost in quality of life for the working and lower middle classes. The middle class should just about break off even, or see a small gain, and the upper middle class is where there's a bit of a "pinch", and particularly the upper class and big corporations.

[PACOX]

Devil Worship and suspicion of cults are the same reason why republicans in the US distrust social welfare programs. (lol)

Gahdamn, you almost killed me with that one.

[Logwyn]

Higher income taxes, basically. If you're getting, say, a $20,000 basic income, then your actual work income's on top of that, so if you make $40,000 in the USA right now, your after-tax income is somewhere around $30k in most states (I ran a tax calculator last time, it was almost bang-on, adjust for your specific state accordingly, it won't make any significant difference to the point). That's about a 25% tax rate, effective, split between state and federal.

Bump that to 60%, and your after-tax work income is now $16,000, on the same $40,000 salary. Seems bad, right? You're forgetting the Basic Income. You get that as an "extra" $20k, for a net take-home of $36k/year, about $6k more than before.

Your tax load goes from $10k to $24k, which is ALMOST enough to cover your BI stipend all on its own, you'll notice; you're that $6k ahead. People making more than $40k, obviously, end up paying more, and offsetting that gap.

When you consider the broad savings in not paying for the complicated social support networks that currently exist (and largely, their administrative costs, since determining if people qualify/for how much/etc is a constant and ongoing expense, whereas BI is just "you're alive? Here's your check", the whole thing ends up being quite affordable, and leads to a boost in quality of life for the working and lower middle classes. The middle class should just about break off even, or see a small gain, and the upper middle class is where there's a bit of a "pinch", and particularly the upper class and big corporations.

Oddly it seems like a good system. Only issue I can see getting it started in say the USA. Would be all the no one would work...we're a welfare nanny state now etc etc. I think it would make working in the long run easier as well. The stress of normal everyday expenses would go away. Just hey I need to work for extra stuff. More or less.

[Endus]

Oddly it seems like a good system. Only issue I can see getting it started in say the USA. Would be all the no one would work...we're a welfare nanny state now etc etc. I think it would make working in the long run easier as well. The stress of normal everyday expenses would go away. Just hey I need to work for extra stuff. More or less.

The idea that people would just not work is basically overblown. When Canada put in a form of Basic Income with the Mincome experiment, the only demographics which showed any reduction in employment behaviour were students (who could more easily focus on their studies without needing a job for basic expenses) and new mothers (who could take time out to raise their kids without struggling for basics, again).

[Deleted]

We get relatively good benefits here in Finland, and I don't really know anyone personally who would've just decided to live on benefits and not try and get employment, myself included. Of course, when you have those benefits, you are afforded the opportunity to try and find the kind of work that you actually want to do, and a job that won't make you want to just do bad things to yourself, instead of having to take the first job you come across. And, typically here those bad jobs actually pay really well, which is incentive enough for people to do them.

That's all anecdotal, of course, but I think people should try living on benefits and welfare first, for several months if not years, to even have the slightest clue what they're talking about, before they start running their mouths about how it's "easy living", because clearly those kinds of people don't seem to know the first thing they're talking about.

It can work, and it does work, if and when it's executed properly. That's what it requires.

[Endus]

We get relatively good benefits here in Finland, and I don't really know anyone personally who would've just decided to live on benefits and not try and get employment, myself included. Of course, when you have those benefits, you are afforded the opportunity to try and find the kind of work that you actually want to do, and a job that won't make you want to just do bad things to yourself, instead of having to take the first job you come across. And, typically here those bad jobs actually pay really well, which is incentive enough for people to do them.

That's all anecdotal, of course, but I think people should try living on benefits and welfare first, for several months if not years, to even have the slightest clue what they're talking about, before they start running their mouths about how it's "easy living", because clearly those kinds of people don't seem to know the first thing they're talking about.

It can work, and it does work, if and when it's executed properly. That's what it requires.

It's just a weird argument, to me. It's like saying "yeah, like anyone would try and get a raise when they're already making a whole $10/hour." Of course people would, and do, because that $10/hour really isn't that much money.

The reality is that the vast, vast majority of people want to better their lot in life, given the opportunity. So they'll work, regardless, and the only reason they wouldn't is if they felt they had something more important to do. In which case, basic income affords them that opportunity.