Britain will veto EU army, says Defence Secretary

[Alexeht]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7313081.html

We need this army badly. Good thing they are leaving soon.

Another "EU nationalist"

This is why UK citizens voting leave (EU) made right decision - hopefully it will actually happen.

Only someone insane would give a european army to those fucktards in bruxelles

Totally agree with you, but as we can see there are many slaves to EU praising it to heavens (and beyond) for not doing anything good for anyone as their main goal.

[Slant]

No we can go into recent history, relatively at least.
Imagine that was how it went down, Crimea holds a vote to secede, then once the vote is done, Russia recognizes the state and threatens to nuke anyone who disagrees.
These sort of questions are extra legal, because once the people of Crimea decides that they are not part of the Ukraine, they cant be expected to care about what the Ukraine thinks.

Oh, I'm not saying Russia is the only faction with a lack of understanding of democracy. The US thinks they can play world chess player, too at times. I'd rather have both of them fuck off and leave Europe alone.

As for Crimea... if Crimea had had an actual democratic poll of sorts, without outside influence, I'd be more inclined to believe they made an independent decision (one of the key attributes to becoming... independent, actually). What happens after that would've been entirely up to that section. I've never once doubted the credibility of the Yugoslavian split up. You can't split up much harder and legit than those dudes did. Had Russia touched the balcans at that time, they'd have fouled the entire process and I'd believe it to be Russian manufacture till this day. That's the difference. Russia should learn not to touch other countries, they ruin things just as much as the US do. If not more, because Russia has no finesse, no diplomacy and apparently no common sense in these matters.

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Another "EU nationalist"

This is why UK citizens voting leave (EU) made right decision - hopefully it will actually happen.

Yes, after they trainwrecked everything with bullshit vetoes just so they can later say "See, we told you it wouldn't work!"

I've seen 4 year olds throw their toys around in a more constructive fashion than the current UK Government does...

[Doylez]

Looks like UK thinks they can blackmail EU to get better deals for when they're actually leaving.
Not sure if they're that stupid or if they think EU is that stupid.

[Deleted]

Countries have sovereignity. If they had held a vote without nazi influence (and yes, forming a subsidiary local chapter of the NSDAP is nazi influence, before you question this)

Yes, but that does not invalidate a vote (certainly the actions of those people could have yes).

it would have looked a lot more credible. See, it's all about who's planting the idea and being the driving force behind these things. In Kosovo, people started being dissatisfied and change came from within. There was no outside party telling them they should or could do that. They just decided they would, no matter what.

Kosovo is currently being 'occupied' by Nato and EU forces.

With Crimea, things were stable until Russia went and said "Oh, btw, we could just make you Russia again, how about that?" That's when things heated up. Where the EU was reluctant and dealt with Ukraine like they deal with every potential new member (be democratic, have certain values), Russia not only baited them with a monstrous carrot, they also sent in troops to help push the cart and point a gun at anyone on the cart not to move or else...

Because this was not a question of values and principles, but of something else - national interest.
Facilitating the vote does not invalidate the vote - Ukraine's dislike of the vote does not invalidate the vote
Voter fraud invalidates the vote (i grant you the armed forces could exert undue influence).

[Slant]

The bohemian nsdap chapter used the same militia scare tactics they developed in germany. It totally invalidates the democratic process.

The same in crimea. It may have been the true will of the people but the decision will forever be tainted and leave doubt.

[Ulmita]

Yes, is that the same kind of vote that gave the communist party close to 100% in soviet elections? Why are people still pretending that just because something's called a "vote" that it automatically makes everything democratic? Heck, East Germany was called German Democratic Republic, yet nobody in their right mind had any doubt that it was anything but democratic. It's like some people are on this planet that I could dupe by slapping a big sign on a car that reads "This is a plane". They'd probably get in and wait for the stewardess to explain how to exit the vehicle in case of emergency...

Countries have sovereignity. If they had held a vote without nazi influence (and yes, forming a subsidiary local chapter of the NSDAP is nazi influence, before you question this), it would have looked a lot more credible. See, it's all about who's planting the idea and being the driving force behind these things. In Kosovo, people started being dissatisfied and change came from within. There was no outside party telling them they should or could do that. They just decided they would, no matter what.

With Crimea, things were stable until Russia went and said "Oh, btw, we could just make you Russia again, how about that?" That's when things heated up. Where the EU was reluctant and dealt with Ukraine like they deal with every potential new member (be democratic, have certain values), Russia not only baited them with a monstrous carrot, they also sent in troops to help push the cart and point a gun at anyone on the cart not to move or else...

And how do you explain when statistical companies contact gallops a year after and people are fucking happy with them going to Russia.
Also:

a)Crimea was Russian thus why the vast majority of people living there are Russian and
b)

With Crimea, things were stable until Russia went and said "Oh, btw, we could just make you Russia again, how about that?" legal government was oust by an overnight coup

fixd it for you

[Mayhem]

Because he acknowledges the EU isn't perfect? I believe most members of the EU accept this fact

I don´t know why you´re trying to become Kalis best friend here but you´re doing a great job sofar, he can do no wrong in your eyes, right?

Advising for germany to go against EU law and have it´s own interests in mind first is an awesome idea to make the imperfect EU a bit more perfect, right?

[Kalis]

I don´t know why you´re trying to become Kalis best friend here but you´re doing a great job sofar, he can do no wrong in your eyes, right?

Advising for germany to go against EU law and have it´s own interests in mind first is an awesome idea to make the imperfect EU a bit more perfect, right?

What? I don't advise Germany.

Do you think I have a hotline to Merkel? Or that she frequents this site, waiting for me to post in order to formulate her international strategy?

[Deleted]

lol. Michael Fallon is my MP, what a G

[Wikiy]

I have a question for my fellow pro-EU army citizens... What exactly do you think this army would or could accomplish if the EU doesn't even have common foreign or security policy? Don't you think it would be more appropriate to wait until a federation's been established?

[Ulmita]

I have a question for my fellow pro-EU army citizens... What exactly do you think this army would or could accomplish if the EU doesn't even have common foreign or security policy? Don't you think it would be more appropriate to wait until a federation's been established?

a) It will force us to have a common foreign and security policy =)
b) It will serve EUs interests ONLY
c) It will bring huge political leverage to EU as a whole and last but not least
d) It will bring EU closer to federalization

some good side effects will be the weakening of NATO and thats the point which the Brits use to veto.

[Mafic]

a) It will force us to have a common foreign and security policy =)
b) It will serve EUs interests ONLY
c) It will bring huge political leverage to EU as a whole and last but not least
d) It will bring EU closer to federalization

some good side effects will be the weakening of NATO and thats the point which the Brits use to veto.

a. That isn't possible as many of the EU members in the east will not have their security concerns taken as seriously as the west. And lets be honest...what security concerns does Western Europe have to contend with that their own national military and police forces can't handle on their own (eg anti terrorism)?

b. The EU is too divided for that to happen. Greece will reject the formation of the EU army if the Aegean is not defended and the western EU countries show little interest in defending the eastern European boundaries and waters.

c. Political leverage against whom? The United States, Russia, Turkey, Israel, etc already are economic and military powerhouses.

Is Germany willing to shoulder the economic load (again) with France providing the backbone of the EU army? This isn't realistic if you think about it.

d. Western Europe will never see eye to eye with Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe is still tense because of conflicts with neighbors within Europe and external. This is why the Balkans are a powder keg. Western Europe in comparison are looking for a problem to a solution at this point.

NATO isn't weakened with the formation of the EU. It means the United States doesn't have to provide millions of dollars to prop it up and can kick out members that do not contribute to NATO and admit those that are serious to their commitments.

[Ulmita]

a. That isn't possible as many of the EU members in the east will not have their security concerns taken as seriously as the west. And lets be honest...what security concerns does Western Europe have to contend with that their own national military and police forces can't handle on their own (eg anti terrorism)?

b. The EU is too divided for that to happen. Greece will reject the formation of the EU army if the Aegean is not defended and the western EU countries show little interest in defending the eastern European boundaries and waters.

c. Political leverage against whom? The United States, Russia, Turkey, Israel, etc already are economic and military powerhouses.

Is Germany willing to shoulder the economic load (again) with France providing the backbone of the EU army? This isn't realistic if you think about it.

d. Western Europe will never see eye to eye with Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe is still tense because of conflicts with neighbors within Europe and external. This is why the Balkans are a powder keg. Western Europe in comparison are looking for a problem to a solution at this point.

NATO isn't weakened with the formation of the EU. It means the United States doesn't have to provide millions of dollars to prop it up and can kick out members that do not contribute to NATO and admit those that are serious to their commitments.

a-b) Yes it is very much possible. At least this is what German, France, Italy the EU commissioner think and thats why they are pushing ahead with the project.

c) Political leverage world wide. EU is the strongest economy in the world. It can be the strongest military wise as well, aka a superpower easily.
You don't understand how EU works. Germany has made over 100 billion since the crisis begun and is still making a shitload of money because they are in the free market and are using euros. If Germany was to leave EU their products would be stupendous expensive slashing their exports to minimal levels.
And no, Germany and France wont take the burden, EU will. EU has a bank and a budget. They can function through that easily. And yes, it is Germany who is pushing hard for an army.

d) Might or might not. However, unifying everyone under one roof might be the answer. An army is certainly a roof =)

[Wikiy]

a) It will force us to have a common foreign and security policy =)

I don't think it can do that. Having an army wont prevent member states from opposing certain operations this army would do. And member states can always veto things. I.e., the only situation where you can safely put aside the opposition of certain states is the one where they can't veto. And that wont happen until a federation's been established.

b) It will serve EUs interests ONLY
c) It will bring huge political leverage to EU as a whole and last but not least
d) It will bring EU closer to federalization

some good side effects will be the weakening of NATO and thats the point which the Brits use to veto.

These are all good pros, but yeah, as I said, none of it really matters when the basic condition (what I explained above) hasn't been fulfilled.

[Deleted]

I don't think it can do that. Having an army wont prevent member states from opposing certain operations this army would do. And member states can always veto things. I.e., the only situation where you can safely put aside the opposition of certain states is the one where they can't veto. And that wont happen until a federation's been established.



These are all good pros, but yeah, as I said, none of it really matters when the basic condition (what I explained above) hasn't been fulfilled.

Cant see why an EU army couldnt be defensive only.

[Slant]

You don't understand how EU works. Germany has made over 100 billion since the crisis begun and is still making a shitload of money because they are in the free market and are using euros. If Germany was to leave EU their products would be stupendous expensive slashing their exports to minimal levels.
)

Dont be silly. Germany has been export champion before the euro already. We are good at exports because we build good products not because we sell in euro. Sometimes i wonder if you ever leave your house to see how the real world works.

[Ulmita]

Dont be silly. Germany has been export champion before the euro already. We are good at exports because we build good products not because we sell in euro. Sometimes i wonder if you ever leave your house to see how the real world works.

Kids now days...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ngle-cent.html

[Wikiy]

Cant see why an EU army couldnt be defensive only.

It's not like defense is an issue. If we're talking about situations where an EU army could be useful (in defense), well... All those situations are already covered by NATO/national armies. Europe doesn't have issues on the defensive front, at least not in that sense. We have issues on the power projection front. I'm talking about situations like Ukraine.

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Kids now days...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ngle-cent.html

i'm completely retarded when it comes to economics, mind translating and summing up that article for me? Germany made money on the Greek crisis. Okay? Point being?

[Slant]

Kids now days...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ngle-cent.html

Nobody gives a fuck about the Greek crisis. I was responding directly to your claim that German exports would drop to a minimum the second they leave the EU. That's utter bullshit bred in the minds of some seriously deluded people. Germany has been world champion of exports before anyone even talked about a Euro. So cut the crap and stop talking nonsense. While you're at it, how about you stop whinging about Germany spoonfeeding Greece. Especially when that profit your article describes is a passive boon granted to Germany, because Greece fucked up, not because Germany did anything.

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Cant see why an EU army couldnt be defensive only.

The German army is defensive only by nature. It seems to work pretty well, albeit the army doesn't have the budget it really needs. The EU could make it better. And as always, it's a work in progress. Always the attempt to make it better than the last time.

[Deleted]

It's not like defense is an issue. If we're talking about situations where an EU army could be useful (in defense), well... All those situations are already covered by NATO/national armies. Europe doesn't have issues on the defensive front, at least not in that sense. We have issues on the power projection front. I'm talking about situations like Ukraine.

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i'm completely retarded when it comes to economics, mind translating and summing up that article for me? Germany made money on the Greek crisis. Okay? Point being?

NATO is not really looking at European interests though.
http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/27/w...nt-with-russia
Read this article. It's interesting.