Rets, please - stop buff kings and wisdom in dungeons.

[dacoolist]

@Warlucia - I bet you would pay 100g a dungeon if Rat's would buff correctly <3

OT: I will say this, I've actually never, EVER - E V E R witnessed a Ret Paladin buff ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=203528/...ssing-of-might ) correctly, and I even ask them politely every single time " /whisper: 'would you do me a big favor, again I'm just trying to make this run go by as quickly, fun, and painlessly as possible - please buff might on all dps' " - Guy literally gives me might, like, idk 75% of the time, and then continues to have might and kings on himself/herself.. makes me wonder if people even give a shit anymore.

[Morally Grey Storm]

This discussion confuses me. It's so incredibly moot. If I'm doing random dungeons, they're such a cakewalk in the first place I couldn't really care less if some paladin doesn't give me the buffs I think he should be giving. People who go into pugs expecting to change the way others play the game is just bizarre; it rarely works so why waste the effort? Kind of reminds me of the fools who go into random battlegrounds and start giving team orders as if they expect everyone to listen, then get mad when people don't. Duh. It's a pug.

I mean yeah, sure, the run may take a bit longer and be slightly less smooth if a pug paladin is giving bad buffs or none at all. So what. They're not your guild or friends so you can't tell them what to do. You can suggest things to them, but I think it's the part where the OP says people like that are a 'burden' that tweaked a lot of noses. The greatest burden in pugs, is, IMO, people who try to take charge. If I want to be led, I go on a guild run where I know who is in charge and accept them as being in charge. But taking a bit longer to do a pug dungeon? Hardly what I'd call burdensome. Would you?

If, on the other hand, I'm doing harder content like Mythic+, then I'm running with friends or guildies who I can rely on, and again, the entire discussion is still moot because we're a structured team and we discuss in advance, like rational adults, which buffs to use and why.

So you propose us to stop caring?
To stop trying to help and enlighten other players?
Kay.

[Meebo]

Just for making this thread I'm only every going to give out Blessing of Wisdom.

[xChurch]

Does Ret seriously do less damage by default because of these buffs? If so that is extremely piss poor design.

[Gradingus]

I didn't actually know that you could use one Blessing on three different people... not that I've done any group content with my Paladin in Legion so far, but it's good to know, for sure.

I'm curious why they suddenly did it like that, though. It seems really confusing and weird.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Just for making this thread I'm only every going to give out Blessing of Wisdom.

Bold decision! Blessings upon you!
May your groups/raids suffer inexplicitly, while wiping horribly and dying extremely panfully and gory.

Does Ret seriously do less damage by default because of these buffs? If so that is extremely piss poor design.

3x GBoM amounts to at least a 10% DPS increase.

[Alindra]

Well I mean, I do care because Blizzard said we'd do 10% less damage than other specs so the only way I can do as much damage is if I buff others and hope they are both good at DpS and don't die at the start of a fight.

No. They said we were (paraphrased) "balanced around having 3 Greater Blessings out, not necessarily just Might." In other words, balanced around 1 <= x <= 3 GBoMs, where we don't know what x is. If it's 2, then 3 GBoMs would be ~3% extra damage.

I think Greater Blessings are a criminally missed opportunity to be something unique and engaging.

[Schattenlied]

We just need to band together as a community and get GBlessings removed from the game, post on the forums, tweet at the devs... Be relentless (but polite), and maybe we can get this trash mechanic out of the game.

At the very least Might needs to go, the others aren't an issue as long as there isn't one that results in a DPS tax.

[TheFirstOnes]

No problem! I thought it was pretty obvious but from some of the posts i thought i'd explain it. I do apologise for not catching the typos though.

- - - Updated - - -



Sure. You can use none aswell and still suceed, at leats in lower difficulty levels. The OP isn't trying to tell you how to play, he is telling you how to play correctly. What you want to do is up to you.

But still, i'm not gonna have some random shaman tell me to give em a strength buff, like...bro.

[PunisherV20]

First thing I do when entering a dungeon is buff 2 DPS and myself with Might. I haven't done it yet but a few times I've considered using the third Might on the tank...that's stupid right?

[Morally Grey Storm]

First thing I do when entering a dungeon is buff 2 DPS and myself with Might. I haven't done it yet but a few times I've considered using the third Might on the tank...that's stupid right?

no, actually not.
DH tanks do an obscene amount of damage in an AoE vicinty.
SO you might consider buffing at least DH tank with GBoM.

[shaunika123]

They need to just remove the blessings and buff ret damage to compensate. It's awful design that an optimally played retri paladin should be buffing the top 3 dps and sacrificing his own damage.

it's one of the best designs of legion imho, you can stay competitive in damage without taking spots from pure dps classes it's literally a winwin
plus paladins are surprise surprise a supportive utility class, they have been since the dawn of time. even in other games

[Morally Grey Storm]

it's one of the best designs of legion imho, you can stay competitive in damage without taking spots from pure dps classes it's literally a winwin
plus paladins are surprise surprise a supportive utility class, they have been since the dawn of time. even in other games

Yeah, best design- an hour-long pre-pull fire-and forget buffs, 2 out of 3 of which are virtually worthless, and third one for some fething dumb reason attributes damage done to Paladin.

what are pure dps
is there a definition of a "supportive utility class"
how do durids fit into your totally solid theory about pure/unpure/supportive utility dps classes
did you just make it all out
?

[Schattenlied]

without taking spots from pure dps classes it's literally a winwin

No, Hybrid tax is not a thing, pure vs hybrid does not matter.... Feral Druids are one of the top DPS is the game right now, and they are more hybrid than Ret is... There is no excuse for this bullshit mechanic, and STOP acting like we should be doing less DPS than "pures" by design, we should equal, no questions asked.

Holy is the support spec, Ret is not, we do NOT need this shit.

[shaunika123]

No, Hybrid tax is not a thing, pure vs hybrid does not matter.... Feral Druids are one of the top DPS is the game right now, and they are more hybrid than Ret is... There is no excuse for this bullshit mechanic, and STOP acting like we should be doing less DPS than "pures" by design, we should equal, no questions asked.

Holy is the support spec, Ret is not, we do NOT need this shit.

if you're equal why bring a pure dps? you do the same dmg BUT can heal/res/bop/freedom and spec heal/tank if theres too much dps

pure dps specs should do more dmg and hybrids should have more utility. that's just how a proper mmo would work, just because ferals have good single target dmg (and nothing else) doesnt mean that's the right way to go

Yeah, best design- an hour-long pre-pull fire-and forget buffs, 2 out of 3 of which are virtually worthless, and third one for some fething dumb reason attributes damage done to Paladin.

what are pure dps
is there a definition of a "supportive utility class"
how do durids fit into your totally solid theory about pure/unpure/supportive utility dps classes
did you just make it all out
?

i love how i mention an ideal situation and you bring up examples to counter it, i never said that's how it is i said that's how it should be
BoK and wisdom can be buffed/changed, all i was talking about is the CONCEPT nothing else.

[Schattenlied]

if you're equal why bring a pure dps? you do the same dmg BUT can heal/res/bop/freedom and spec heal/tank if theres too much dps

pure dps specs should do more dmg and hybrids should have more utility. that's just how a proper mmo would work, just because ferals have good single target dmg (and nothing else) doesnt mean that's the right way to go





i love how i mention an ideal situation and you bring up examples to counter it, i never said that's how it is i said that's how it should be
BoK and wisdom can be buffed/changed, all i was talking about is the CONCEPT nothing else.

More now than ever, spec is all that matters... With how much AP you need to dump into a weapon to make the spec useful, it's basically as bad as switching characters entirely - pure vs hybrid does not matter.

Ret is DPS, it should do equal damage to every other DPS spec.

Every class brings some form of utility, even Rogues... If Ret needs to lose some utility to do competitive DPS, so be it (like Greater Blessings, get rid of them), we are a DPS spec, not a support spec... However, Feral has just as much utility as we do, and they have almost always been right up there with Rogues and Mages in the DPS meters for the last few expansions.

Hybrid tax has not been a thing since WotLK launched, that has not changed, GBoM needs to be scrapped and we need to have our personal damage increased by ~10% at least.

[shaunika123]

More now than ever, spec is all that matters... With how much AP you need to dump into a weapon to make the spec useful, it's basically as bad as switching characters entirely - pure vs hybrid does not matter.

Ret is DPS, it should do equal damage to every other DPS spec.

Every class brings some form of utility, even Rogues... If Ret needs to lose some utility to do competitive DPS, so be it (like Greater Blessings, get rid of them), we are a DPS spec, not a support spec... However, Feral has just as much utility as we do, and they have almost always been right up there with Rogues and Mages in the DPS meters for the last few expansions.

Hybrid tax has not been a thing since WotLK launched, that has not changed, GBoM needs to be scrapped and we need to have our personal damage increased by ~10% at least.

then again, why does it matter in a raid?
your damage on the meters will be exactly the same (unless you put BoM on the wrong targets)
you make 3 people feel special by buffing them
and the final outcome is the exact same thing

yes if your entire raid sucks and you having 10% more dmg would actually net you more dmg due to that it sucks but why even raid in that environment?

ferals have been garbage all the way through wod btw
and their AOE has always been dead last of any spec so they can get away with high ST dmg.

and i already said hybrid tax isnt a thing but it should be BoM is one of the most clever ways of making you both do competitive dmg AND have raid utility all at the same time.

if ret damage is low even WITH BoM that's a totally different issue, and should not matter in this discussion.

[Schattenlied]

then again, why does it matter in a raid?
your damage on the meters will be exactly the same (unless you put BoM on the wrong targets)
you make 3 people feel special by buffing them
and the final outcome is the exact same thing

and i already said hybrid tax isnt a thing but it should be BoM is one of the most clever ways of making you both do competitive dmg AND have raid utility all at the same time.

The issue is it's 100% irrelevant, it is not utility, because we are losing 10% damage to give out 10% damage... It's a zero sum, the raid gains nothing from it, therefore it is pointless and should not exist...

This is the definition of ability bloat (which is what they removed Seals for, and then gave us this worthless trash), the blessings exist literally only for "class fantasy", they benefit no one... It can only ever be a detriment to the casting Paladin, and that is not acceptable... If someone else dies, the Paladin loses DPS, if they under perform, the Paladin loses DPS, under no circumstances is this an acceptable mechanic for DPS spec... We, and the raid as a whole, would be entirely better off if we did that damage ourselves.


The bolded part is 100% irrelevant, no one I know gives a shit if they get might or not, they all agree with me, in fact, that the buffs should not exist at all.

[shaunika123]

The issue is it's 100% irrelevant, it is not utility, because we are losing 10% damage to give out 10% damage... It's a zero sum, the raid gains nothing from it, therefore it is pointless and should not exist...

This is the definition of ability bloat (which is what they removed Seals for, and then gave us this worthless trash), the blessings exist literally only for "class fantasy", they benefit no one... It can only ever be a detriment to the casting Paladin, and that is not acceptable... If someone else dies, the Paladin loses DPS, if they under perform, the Paladin loses DPS, under no circumstances is this an acceptable mechanic for DPS spec... We, and the raid as a whole, would be entirely better off if we did that damage ourselves.


The bolded part is 100% irrelevant, no one I know gives a shit if they get might or not, they all agree with me, in fact, that the buffs should not exist at all.

okay no its not ability bloat

a: you have to choose who to give it to, what type of fight favours what classes and so on
b: theoretically you should have a choice between 3 buffs, the fact that the other 2 are garbage is a different issue they should be buffed
c: i love when i get might and i can tease the retpala in our guild hes being carried by my damage so its not irrelevant.

and again all im saying is that the idea is great
3 boms on 3 good targets should net slightly more dps to the raid than a single dps doing 10% more dmg, that's how it should be tuned, if its not well that's a design issue

i think being able to buff others that basically funnels your damage is the literal defition of have your cake and eat it too, if the numbers are wrong then they're wrong, all im talking about here is the idea.

the reason i hate the "all dps should do good dps equally" mentality is because they never will, there will always be a hierarchy and classes will get left behind whereas if they had great stuff to offer the raid BESIDES damage, you'd be happy to have them.

[Schattenlied]

okay no its not ability bloat

a: you have to choose who to give it to, what type of fight favours what classes and so on
b: theoretically you should have a choice between 3 buffs, the fact that the other 2 are garbage is a different issue they should be buffed
c: i love when i get might and i can tease the retpala in our guild hes being carried by my damage so its not irrelevant.

and again all im saying is that the idea is great
3 boms on 3 good targets should net slightly more dps to the raid than a single dps doing 10% more dmg, that's how it should be tuned, if its not well that's a design issue

i think being able to buff others that basically funnels your damage is the literal defition of have your cake and eat it too, if the numbers are wrong then they're wrong, all im talking about here is the idea.

We disagree entirely, I would rather do the damage myself under all circumstances, and I'm pretty sure the Ret in your guild that you "tease" would agree with me... If your doing so much more DPS than him that you can tease him about carrying with your damage, your entire raid would benefit more from BoM not existing and him doing as much DPS as you do.

I'm fine with the other two buffs existing, but under no circumstances should ANY of our DPS be dependent on anyone but ourselves... The idea is NOT great, it is flawed to it's fucking core, I don't give a hoot about the numbers, whatever the numbers would be, I would rather do them MYSELF, and so would every other Ret I know who is even slightly serious about their performance.