Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Icecreamcake]

Can someone please help me with the proper opener? I have both Rage of the Illidari and Anguish of the Deceiver, but I still have no idea when to use FoTI and Chaos Blades. Also when is it ideal to FR during metamorphosis? When around 60 fury or when FR gives 80+??

[mitre27]

I'm unsure which trinket to aim for from emerald nightmare, they all seem garbage excluding ursocs.

[Nestalim]

They are. But Ursoc's one is powerful.

[Thrillhouse918]

So, for anyone out there reading this thread wondering if Momentum is too challenging or too much of a pain in the ass, I'd encourage you to try it. I gave it a whirl last night and after a couple of pulls on Nythendra I was top 5 DPS in 830ish gear with very little AP in my Twinblades. Do yourself a favour and try it, you might like it.

That being said, I'm a little confused about proper play. Should I be aiming to maximize Momentum uptime even if I have to use Demon's Bite in that window? Or save Momentum for when I can mini-burst with Chaos Strikes, etc? Basically do I save Momo for pooled fury, or keep the buff rolling as best I can?

Also, MoTG is the talent for that tier, correct? I've seen some people use Unleashed in that tier especially for the Oozes on Il'g.

[Deleted]

MotG is the go-to because it smooths out Bloodlet by a mile.
Unleashed should be picked if you need the reliability: as the sticky itself states, the kill is more important than personal performance, especially during progression.

[the boar]

I watched few streams and most DHs use demon blades and chaos blades even without rings. I must test this, never played myslef with chaos blades.

last night was me and another dh with both setups, i had prepared and fel barrage and they had demon blades and chaos blades. they had better trinkets than me but other than that our ilvls were about the same.
our damage on single target fights was more or less the same, and on add festivals i pulled ahead ofc

annoyingly i forgot to log, but we're not super pros or anything and i know for a fact i messed up plenty. but it was nice to see that fel barrage is just fine to use even on single target fights. swapping talents every other fight was something i really didn't find interesting in draenor.

That's a bit gutting then. I love playing Havoc without fel rush in the rotation. With it I just find it clunky and infuriating... Hmm.. gutted... perhaps i'll stick to Vengeance.

if you want a build/spend melee dps that doesn't zip around the place all day, maybe try a warrior?

there was a third dh in our raid that was way behind on damage, i imagine maybe they weren't rushing about. i mean, in a casual group it doesn't matter that much. i wouldn't wanna be that person in a mythic raid though, casual or not.

[Krolja]

That being said, I'm a little confused about proper play. Should I be aiming to maximize Momentum uptime even if I have to use Demon's Bite in that window? Or save Momentum for when I can mini-burst with Chaos Strikes, etc? Basically do I save Momo for pooled fury, or keep the buff rolling as best I can?

Uptime uptime uptime. Momo is 20% to all your damage, and even if you get some RNG no crit streaks that force a DB here and there. It's still worth. Just keep it rolling. Once you get a flow you'll notice that Fel Rushing/VR will usually net you all the Fury you need for all 3 of your GCDs during the buff to all be a priority ability rather than a filler like DB. Only on very rare occasions of multiple no crit streaks do I really have to DB during Momo.

[Yhcti]

last night was me and another dh with both setups, i had prepared and fel barrage and they had demon blades and chaos blades. they had better trinkets than me but other than that our ilvls were about the same.
our damage on single target fights was more or less the same, and on add festivals i pulled ahead ofc

annoyingly i forgot to log, but we're not super pros or anything and i know for a fact i messed up plenty. but it was nice to see that fel barrage is just fine to use even on single target fights. swapping talents every other fight was something i really didn't find interesting in draenor.



if you want a build/spend melee dps that doesn't zip around the place all day, maybe try a warrior?

there was a third dh in our raid that was way behind on damage, i imagine maybe they weren't rushing about. i mean, in a casual group it doesn't matter that much. i wouldn't wanna be that person in a mythic raid though, casual or not.

I don't mind the dashing around, I love mobility. I absolutely hate having no mobility. So I love Fel Rush for that. Maybe i'll give it a try.. I just need to find the right build/rotation so I know roughly what I'm doing. I played Warrior in GW2 so greatsword is like that, #3 dash through them then run back/charge back to dps lol

[Skaiya]

Do the BiS lists for EN/Nighthold take into accounting the shifting favor towards Vers/Haste after a certain Crit breakpoint? Also, do we have a definitive answer on where exactly that breakpoint is?

[Krolja]

45%ish Crit seems to be the breakpoint before the sims start showing Verse/Haste with more priority. I noticed that with 10% haste I can comfortably get off 3 gcds before Momo falls off, and it even gets the second hit of CS in the last .5 seconds. It made the rotation a lot smoother for me, personally.

[Juvencus]

Can someone shed some light on an issue I have with Havoc stats?

I've been a long time Moonkin player and as far back as I can remember, stat weights were pretty much standardized for the duration of a patch.
In WoD Mastery the go to stat even though stats were really really close together. And those stat weights came from normalized stat sims of different setups (you may know it as 70/15/15%). And those stats were used to build the BiS lists.

Many people were asking the same questions as in here "Why do my sims show x stat over Mastery?". And the answer from the people on the forums was that it's because they were stacking so much Mastery that other stats pull ahead and that it doesn't matter since the personal sim stat results were for added stat effects outside gear, like food. Meaning the personal stat weights only hold true when your gear remains the same.

And this is were I'm stuck.

The last part makes perfect sense to me. As Havoc I can have an ilvl 850 Crit+Vers equipped and an ilvl 850 Haste+Vers drops. Personal sims can show Haste is better since I have absurd amounts of Crit. I switch to the drop piece. Now personal sims show Haste ahead, pretty much creating a loop on the pieces.

This is why the standard stat weights make sense to me and not the personal ones. And its why I keep my Pawn values on the simmed generalized stat weights from Pawkets/Aggixx.

So, what's the deal with this whole thing?

[lucasriosfg]

With the Anger of the Half Giants ring, worth using demon blades over prepared?

[Deleted]

any new trinket list?

[Jngizu]

This is not really true.

Rough guide:

Sharpened Glaives is worth ~15 ilvls
Chaos Strike is worth ~10 ilvls
Demon's Bite is worth ~5 ilvls

Other traits follow ilvl > trait, however.

Is this still accurate?

[Deleted]

Is this still accurate?

15 ilvls as in 830 -> 845?

[Kursed]

Is there any sims on what number of targets Distant Army becomes better than Hidden Satyr? Just looking over logs satyr really doesn't seem do be doing much dmg and was wondering if it's worth it to just use Distant army.

[mitre27]

They are. But Ursoc's one is powerful.

Any idea which is 2nd best trinket to aim for from EN? Since i have no interest in mythic+ dungeons and relying on a world drop or a world boss trinket is never going to happen with my luck.

[orgulas]

15 ilvls as in 830 -> 845?

Yes. 15ilvl as in not relic but weapon item level is huge boost itself.

[the boar]

Yes. 15ilvl as in not relic but weapon item level is huge boost itself.

wait to me you just said "yes 15 ilvls on the relic but not 15 ilvls on the relic 15 ilvls on the weapon"

A) 840 Relic. +40 ilvl to weapon - Sharpened Glaives

B) 860 Relic. +46 ilvl to weapon - non-dps trait

maybe this is clearer? a or b?

[Nalistar]

@Vanyali

Could please clarify on two topics I am a bit confused on (probably because of the differences between this guide and Icy Veins' one)?

1) Relics: on the main page you say that ilvl should be always prioritized over trait unless the difference in ilvl is really small? Then you posted about some traits being worth 10 or even 15 ilvls: are we talking about actual relic ilvl or the weapon ilvl?

i.e. I now have a 850 relic with the Demon Bite trait: I could put it over a 835 relic with the Chaos Strike trait and my weapon would gain 4 ilvl but lose a point in a very good trait, or I could put it over a 840 relic with a defensive trait, gaining only 1 weapon ilvl but keeping 2 dps traits. Which one is the best option?

(I would sim it myself but the Simcraft code for Artifact traits is rather obscure to me and I wouldn't know how to)

2) Artifact traits: can you expand on the "up to personal preference" route to go after Anguish of the Deceiver? Is there really no difference in dps in any situation (ST or AoE) by going first after Inner Demons or taking instead Demon rage and Contained Fury? Is ID so strong to be worth spending 4 points in non dps traits instead of having the immediate benefit of the other route?

Thanks a lot for the inputs