NT-Q Nerf - What???

[Deleted]

Basically what Blizzard have done is take the usual bread and butter arcane spec, increase its filler cast time to a 2.1s(ish) cast, gave it unsustainable mana regen and took away it's only semi fun aspect which was quickening.

Surely if you want to actually make the spec fun either allow us to stay at 50 stacks or increase the haste we gain to 5% each cast and reduce the max stacks accordingly.

Currently arcane is pretty !@#$ (patchwerk damage is fine, but it's not necessarily sustainable in mythic raid scenarios) and with the buffs it would have given us leverage to still be competitive on fights where you get feared/stunned/phase transitions. But no, apparently they don't know how to properly build specs and rotations.

What do you guys think?

[Deleted]

Basically what Blizzard have done is take the usual bread and butter arcane spec, increase its filler cast time to a 2.1s(ish) cast, gave it unsustainable mana regen and took away it's only semi fun aspect which was quickening.

Surely if you want to actually make the spec fun either allow us to stay at 50 stacks or increase the haste we gain to 5% each cast and reduce the max stacks accordingly.

Currently arcane is pretty !@#$ (patchwerk damage is fine, but it's not necessarily sustainable in mythic raid scenarios) and with the buffs it would have given us leverage to still be competitive on fights where you get feared/stunned/phase transitions. But no, apparently they don't know how to properly build specs and rotations.

What do you guys think?

NTspam was never any fun.
You're completely right about the cast time and mana regen though. Cast time needs to be reduced back to 2 sec, the Draenor perk of faster casts per charge needs to be baked in (the Slow as well), and mana regen needs at the very least be doubled, in and out of combat.
While we are at it, where is the Blink speed buff glyph effect? It needs to be baked in as well.

[Shangalar]

Edited thread title to remove the profanity, but maintain the drama.

It's a good change. NT spam was crappy. But even now you can keep it up for about two burn phases and then it drops so you start over so we'll still be doing it probably.

[Deleted]

I don't know how that was not nerfed in beta, it was clear since the first moment i used quickining that it was very powerful in certain situations,
im sad to see it change, it reminds me of the blood dk breath of sindragosa in wod, something fun and different u can do with your class, it's a shame to see it changed, expecially for the loss of all stacks after 50.

But i think they have to kinda rework quickening in this way: Increase the haste buff to 4% per stack and cap the max stack u can get at a number that can be for example 25,

Bottom line: quickening is fun i love as an arcane mage having the possibility to do very fast damage at the cost of mana, getting it faster would be even better but i would like to choose when to resets it and not to auto. reset after a certain cap.

BUT that just remembers me of the arcane blast perk we had in wod and tbc haha.

[Deleted]

Basically what Blizzard have done is take the usual bread and butter arcane spec, increase its filler cast time to a 2.1s(ish) cast, gave it unsustainable mana regen and took away it's only semi fun aspect which was quickening.

Surely if you want to actually make the spec fun either allow us to stay at 50 stacks or increase the haste we gain to 5% each cast and reduce the max stacks accordingly.

Currently arcane is pretty !@#$ (patchwerk damage is fine, but it's not necessarily sustainable in mythic raid scenarios) and with the buffs it would have given us leverage to still be competitive on fights where you get feared/stunned/phase transitions. But no, apparently they don't know how to properly build specs and rotations.

What do you guys think?

It isn't intended way to play arcane. This should be nerfed long ago during beta. Only morons can be angry about this fix - it is fix, not nerf (see the difference?).

[Jimm3]

It was broken beyond doubt.

Lowering the quickening stacks was the way to go but we will see how big of an impact has to no be able to refresh them at 50 and have to start over.
I guess it will vary depending on length of fight and mechanics

[Deleted]

I've never tried this, but what is the NT spam rotation exactly?

[Summer]

The only surprise in aids arcane getting fixed was how long it took :P

[Deleted]

The only surprise in aids arcane getting fixed was how long it took :P

And it still has not been fixed.

Spoilers.

[Northem]

I consider that the fix is not enough. Personally I would remove the [Quickening] talent for good as it doesn't promote healthy rotations and, in addition, has become mandatory in case you can get the maximum DPS.

Basically I'd recover the iconic baseline effect of [Arcane Blast]: its cast time is reduced by X for each [Arcane Charge] we had. And that's all. Problems solved.

[yarafx1]

I consider that the fix is not enough. Personally I would remove the [Quickening] talent for good as it doesn't promote healthy rotations and, in addition, has become mandatory in case you can get the maximum DPS.

Basically I'd recover the iconic baseline effect of [Arcane Blast]: its cast time is reduced by X for each [Arcane Charge] we had. And that's all. Problems solved.

I say this + give Prismatic Crystal back, like it fit the theme, binding the volatile arcane energy to your demands etc etc. The nerf to 50 stacks seems fine, not being able to sustain it though does not. :/

[Obelisk Kai]

I consider that the fix is not enough. Personally I would remove the [Quickening] talent for good as it doesn't promote healthy rotations and, in addition, has become mandatory in case you can get the maximum DPS.

Basically I'd recover the iconic baseline effect of [Arcane Blast]: its cast time is reduced by X for each [Arcane Charge] we had. And that's all. Problems solved.

I also agree with Northem on this.

I think it's clear that Arcane right now is developing along unintended lines and it has actually drifted away from what it should be.
People are trying to make NT spam work as it's the only way Arcane appears to be in any way viable. Yet it seems to be a crappy, unfun, counter-intuitive way to play.

If Blizzard is trying to break it, good. But at the same time they really should be trying to fix the spec.
Everyone who comes to these forums for any length of time KNOWS mastery is not too important for Arcane, yet everyone else thinks Arcane is the mastery based spec. Even the latest fix will only cause people to double down on that stat. And you know what? Mastery SHOULD be the best spec for Arcane. The fact that it isn't says the spec has some deep, deep problems...

[Antonin]

As an Arcane mage who used NT spam to be heads and shoulders above other DPS on 4 of the bosses in EN, I am happy they took it away. It was an unfun playstyle that promoted sloppy mechanics in favor of keeping those stacks up.

Blizz did a great job buffing, making Mastery our main stat again and making a "normal" rotation (including barrage) do just as much damage as NT spamming during conserve now.

I could not be happier with the changes. Yes, we have slower casts, but we also have Shimmer, Displacement and Ice Floes to help with movement. I can't wait until they add back in glyph of momentum, but other than that I see us doing just fine after these changes.

[Traxwow]

They gave into the DH QQ, I guess we didn't cry hard enough to keep NT Spam lol

NT Spam was the only thing keeping arcane near-competitive with fire(On ST) but since it's Blizzard "let's gut it and not implement a way that makes them not be frost-tier, then buff them 3 major patches later."

[Shangalar]

As I wrote in the other thread, I've made some simulations with the new simcraft profiles that include the hotfixes, and posted them in the Arcane sticky. Let's shift the discussion there so we can keep the information in one place for easier use and discussion.

However, I'll keep this thread open if you want to continue discussing the Quickening fix in relation to other things (like the spec in general), as you've already started.

[Obelisk Kai]

They gave into the DH QQ, I guess we didn't cry hard enough to keep NT Spam lol

NT Spam was the only thing keeping arcane near-competitive with fire(On ST) but since it's Blizzard "let's gut it and not implement a way that makes them not be frost-tier, then buff them 3 major patches later."

Why would you want to? As a Fire Mage looking in from the outside, NT spam just looks repulsively unfun, a valid playstyle with too much of a cost. Like a tapeworm parasite that helps you maintain a svelte figure.

The spec will be in a better place once it is purged, and hopefully it can be improved further now on a proper foundation.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Mastery is STILL not the top stat for Arcane even post buff, right?

[Traxwow]

Why would you want to? As a Fire Mage, NT spam just looks repulsively unfun, a benefit with too much of a cost. Like a tapeworm parasite that helps you maintain a svelte figure.

The spec will be in a better place once it is purged, and hopefully it can be improved.

So because you don't enjoy it, that means other people can't enjoy it. The spec isn't in a better place because they removed NT Spam and now it's trash-tier. A better option would be to put something in it's place instead of just removing the thing keeping the spec remotely competitive on certain fights. You act like arcane has ever been historically "fun" to play. It's always been the repetitive count-to-4 spec.

[Shangalar]

So because you don't enjoy it, that means other people can't enjoy it. The spec isn't in a better place because they removed NT Spam and now it's trash-tier. A better option would be to put something in it's place instead of just removing the thing keeping the spec remotely competitive on certain fights. You act like arcane has ever been historically "fun" to play. It's always been the repetitive count-to-4 spec.

Other than counting to 4, from Cataclysm to today it's also been a spec for which you have to think "can I use one more Arcane Blast without gimping myself for the next 2 minutes" and that is what the spec is about, not only counting to 4. Ever since the introduction of Mastery, Arcane's been the spec in which you have to consider every spellcast and how it will affect your dps going forward into the encounter. No other dps spec has ever had this internal decision-making process, or at least not at this level. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it was ever hard to do, but it took a decent amount of time to learn and get good at it.

The NT-spam gameplay completely negates a huge part of what the spec is about, the same way that Scorch-weaving did in 5.1. That's why most of us who play Arcane are against it. Obviously, we'll be doing it because you want your dps to be as good as possible for your guild and raid team, but it's simply not how Arcane was intended to be played, and I'm sure Blizzard feel the same way, but at this point they're not ready to make significant changes to specs, just adjust numbers.

And anyway, NTSpam is still the best, no matter the Quickening fix.

[Obelisk Kai]

So because you don't enjoy it, that means other people can't enjoy it. The spec isn't in a better place because they removed NT Spam and now it's trash-tier. A better option would be to put something in it's place instead of just removing the thing keeping the spec remotely competitive on certain fights. You act like arcane has ever been historically "fun" to play. It's always been the repetitive count-to-4 spec.

As a long term Mage I am used to the pendulum swinging between Fire and Arcane and then having to respec to play effectively.
While they may be taking steps to mitigate that this time, by buffing underperforming specs rather than nerfing (for the most part) overperforming specs, the possibility is still out there that at some point over the Legion lifecycle, Arcane will be ascendant.

So, even though I am currently Fire, I have a vested interested in seeing that Arcane is improved mechanically as well as in pure numbers. NT spam does not appear fun. Plenty of Arcane Mages are complaining about being forced into the playstyle, and I suspect it is anathema to those Mages who are currently Fire. If you liked it, I am sorry for your loss but it appears you are in a tiny minority.

Regardless, as it was a playstyle cobbled together by players rather than the one Blizzard clearly wants you to use as an Arcane Mage, it's days were numbered anyway. Ask Death Knights from previous expansions who found althernative playstyle for their specs such as masterfrost and what eventually happened to them.

And no, I actually believe Arcane is a spec that is a chore to play and I have dreaded each time I have felt compelled to play it. But I'd rather the drudgery of Arcane as I knew it rather than the alternative.

[Komman]

And anyway, NTSpam is still the best, no matter the Quickening fix.

I think it's way too early to make that conclusion. The action lists for both profiles have not been adjusted since before the hotfixes, and there are still a number of ongoing issues with them.