Warlock Buffs arent enought!!

[Deleted]

I looked through some recent logs (with balance changes inlcuded! So all logs are from 28. September onward) and it seems like not much did change overall. Retribution is really strong now.

In detail : Nythendra :

Top Destruction Warlock - 316K
Top Retribution - 460K
Top Arms - 407K
Top Enhance - 388K
Top Arcane Mage - 385K
Top Shadow - 383K
Top Monk - 370K
Top Rogue - 366K
Even Fury, Hunter and some other classes offspecs are 340K+. Only Death Knight seems to be around Destruction


Ursoc :

Top Destruction - 326K
Top Affliction - 270K
Top Retribution - 498K
Top Arms - 440K
Top Shadow 408K
Top Enhance 407K
Top Feral 395K
Top Mage 375K
and so on


Dragons look pretty good for Warlock. Besides Shadow Priest it can be considered one of the best speccs for that single particular boss.

On Xavius some classes pull 500-600K dps, while the best Warlocks are 400K and lower.

Much more data on warcraftlogs. You can look for yourself. What we can see with the changes :

- Retribution really hit the jackpot with the buffs
- Simulationscraft is completely wrong about Demo locks. While they are good on ST they are more than 10% behind Retribution, Arms, Enhance etc.
- Destruction and Affliction buff didn't do much since they backtracked on other classes nerfs and they buffed most other classes.
- In relation Destruction and Affliction probably look worse now than they did before. We need to wait for more results
- On one fight, which is made for Wreak Havoc, Destro does shine, but still not as good as Shadow Priests
- On single target fights Destruction/Affliction is lagging 25-30% behind top performing specs. (Nythendra 316K *1,3 = still less than top spot. So even if they gave Destruction a flat 30% damage buff it wouldn't be enough to get #1 on a simple single target fight. let that sink in)
- Don't get me wrong, A 30% damage buff would be stupid on cleave fights. Wreak havoc needs to go or nerfed.
- On Ursoc Single Target Fight the best Destro is at 326K dps. The best Retri at close to 500K. That would mean even a flat out 40% buff to ST damage would not make us compete with Retribution.

We don't need to get started on Affliction. Even an 80% buff to ST damage wouldn't be enough to make Affliction the best ST spec.

Before you start moaning. I know those are some extreme cases, but I only took results from the newest patch with the balance changes included. Sure some RNG might be affecting is. I know that an 80% buff to affliction would make it the best class in the game, because the results are somewhat influenced by sample size etc.

The logs are up. People can check for themselves. Let's keep it civil. I want a neutral discussion about numbers and no whining from either side. Thank you guys for reading

[Deleted]

tl:dr

Warlocks are still fucking garbage with no utility, bad damage, no mobility

[Deleted]

tl:dr

Warlocks are still fucking garbage with no utility, bad damage, no mobility

yes, but lets keep it constructive and positive

We are better than whining, moaning and raging !

----------------------------------------------------------

Mythic logs are up !

Nythendra :

Top Retribution - 463K (this seems to be an extreme case since everyone else is 330K - 380K
Top Rogue - 380K
Top Arms - 375K
Top Enhance - 348K
Top Feral - 340K
Top Monk - 338K
Top Fire - 332K
Top MM - 332K
Top Destruction - 270K
Top Affliction - Couldn't find any Affliction logs for mythic Nythendra

This is the only mythic fight that is up. Quite a lot of logs actually. I was surprised to find so many people already having defeated that boss on mythic and uploaded logs.

As for damage for mythic it looks to be about the same. A 20% buff to destro would put them at 320K dps on that simple Single Target fight. A 30% buff to destro at 351K damage. That is still not enough for making it into the top 5.

Demo is looking better at 300-310K, but still about 6-10% short of being able to compete with the top.

[adamswagem]

yes, but lets keep it constructive and positive

We are better than whining, moaning and raging !

----------------------------------------------------------

Mythic logs are up !

Nythendra :

Top Retribution - 463K (this seems to be an extreme case since everyone else is 330K - 380K
Top Rogue - 380K
Top Arms - 375K
Top Enhance - 348K
Top Feral - 340K
Top Monk - 338K
Top Fire - 332K
Top MM - 332K
Top Destruction - 270K
Top Affliction - Couldn't find any Affliction logs for mythic Nythendra

This is the only mythic fight that is up. Quite a lot of logs actually. I was surprised to find so many people already having defeated that boss on mythic and uploaded logs.

As for damage for mythic it looks to be about the same. A 20% buff to destro would put them at 320K dps on that simple Single Target fight. A 30% buff to destro at 351K damage. That is still not enough for making it into the top 5.

Demo is looking better at 300-310K, but still about 6-10% short of being able to compete with the top.

While its only been about a day, having absolutely no affliction logs for Mythic fights is probably enough of a telling sign as is. Demo is pretty close to the other specs but still pretty low considering how it is to play in fights that require more mobility. Destro being 60k behind MM is pretty crazy.

The buffs were a good start, but definitely not enough.

[Soulzar]

I swear you have no idea what to look at in logs. People are looking at top performers to see what is POSSIBLE to do, and determining value from that. If the very best X in the game does Y DPS, and Z spec only does 70% of that, then you could be the best Z in the world and still not beat X.

Which is exactly the point they were illustrating is bad practice. People just look at total dmg done and call it a day... Nobody gives flying fuck where that dmg came from. Take a fight like Iskar last tier where the Destro locks F&B their way to meter victory.. while the affliction lock that did 2x the boss dmg because they tunneled boss during air phase instead of AoEing. One looked better on the meters, the other killed the boss faster. Not always does doing the most possible dmg mean you're contributing the most to the kill. Demo being able to mitigate the thorns mechanic on Cenarius may end up being another example this tier where one spec has higher value on killing adds and the other has higher value on pushing the boss on time.

[Deleted]

While its only been about a day, having absolutely no affliction logs for Mythic fights is probably enough of a telling sign as is. Demo is pretty close to the other specs but still pretty low considering how it is to play in fights that require more mobility. Destro being 60k behind MM is pretty crazy.

The buffs were a good start, but definitely not enough.

Yeah normally I'd say that a certain player is underperforming, but we are talking about the top players of the world. They are definitively not underperforming.

If we take the top 5 players of each specc, take the average dps of those 5 players and then compare it to other classes/speccs we still end up with destro being heavily undertuned.
It also can't be gear, because they are having similar gear, most of those guys have legendaries. I tried to look for an explanation why destro is performing so low, but I can't find anything out of the ordinary. All those people are similar in skill, gear, raidgrp, buffs, artifact power etc.

It is definitively worrysome.

[adamswagem]

Yeah normally I'd say that a certain player is underperforming, but we are talking about the top players of the world. They are definitively not underperforming.

If we take the top 5 players of each specc, take the average dps of those 5 players and then compare it to other classes/speccs we still end up with destro being heavily undertuned.
It also can't be gear, because they are having similar gear, most of those guys have legendaries. I tried to look for an explanation why destro is performing so low, but I can't find anything out of the ordinary. All those people are similar in skill, gear, raidgrp, buffs, artifact power etc.

It is definitively worrysome.

I think we should just accept how it is for now, unfortunately, and look towards the next raid and see what is gonna be done about the specs leading up to it. I know we shouldnt expect to be the absolute top for every single fight every single spec all the time, but when you have a class with 3 DPS specs and not one of them is top 5 (besides demo in patchwerk and destro in perfect havoc situations) there is a problem.

[Sunlighthell]

I think we should just accept how it is for now, unfortunately, and look towards the next raid and see what is gonna be done about the specs leading up to it. I know we shouldnt expect to be the absolute top for every single fight every single spec all the time, but when you have a class with 3 DPS specs and not one of them is top 5 (besides demo in patchwerk and destro in perfect havoc situations) there is a problem.

No we should not accept this BS. We have 3 dd specs and we're sitting ot the bottom almost on every fight. And because of bias we're getting almost useless buffs (lol my corruption damage in pvp went from 130k over 18 seconds to 134k over 18 seconds and destro/demo buff is just lol because of mastery/movement). Also still want to know why my chaos bolt with 1.9 cast time with talent and 30% haste which cost 2 shards do damage comparable to melee fillers. Mark my words they will nerf warlocks in 7.1, they already did.

[Deleted]

I think we should just accept how it is for now, unfortunately, and look towards the next raid and see what is gonna be done about the specs leading up to it. I know we shouldnt expect to be the absolute top for every single fight every single spec all the time, but when you have a class with 3 DPS specs and not one of them is top 5 (besides demo in patchwerk and destro in perfect havoc situations) there is a problem.

I agree. For a class with 3 dps speccs we are definitively .. well I am not really satisfied and happy with it overall. I honestly might look into other classes I level up a bit and gear them and if warlocks are still frustating I might switch.

Though I am slow at leveling so it might take a while :|

[adamswagem]

No we should not accept this BS. We have 3 dd specs and we're sitting ot the bottom almost on every fight. And because of bias we're getting almost useless buffs (lol my corruption damage in pvp went from 130k over 18 seconds to 134k over 18 seconds and destro/demo buff is just lol because of mastery/movement). Also still want to know why my chaos bolt with 1.9 cast time with talent and 30% haste which cost 2 shards do damage comparable to melee fillers. Mark my words they will nerf warlocks in 7.1, they already did.

Accept as in, being realistic with how blizzard balances things and how long they take, that we probably will not be near the top(besides certain instances like I said) anytime soon. Doing a 11% buff on our skills was nice(leaving out the pets and portals for destro wasnt so nice) and they also buffed classes alongside of us so the gap between us and them pretty much remained the same. Of course there are exceptions to this like Shadow priests now also being much better, along with arcane mages skyrocketing up for whatever reason. I agree with you on chaos bolt, and I fucking hate affliction right now, although it used to be my favorite spec back in Wrath. Drain life as a filler is extremely boring and the ST numbers are a joke.

I agree. For a class with 3 dps speccs we are definitively .. well I am not really satisfied and happy with it overall. I honestly might look into other classes I level up a bit and gear them and if warlocks are still frustating I might switch.

Though I am slow at leveling so it might take a while :|

I was considering that too but the first character I ever made was a warlock and was always my main and I just dont want to change it as stubborn as that sounds. Was considering making a healer though but dont think Id level a DPS to 110, especially with this AP system in place.

[Deleted]

I was considering that too but the first character I ever made was a warlock and was always my main and I just dont want to change it as stubborn as that sounds. Was considering making a healer though but dont think Id level a DPS to 110, especially with this AP system in place.

My first char ever was a Retribution Paladin, so it'd be a perfect time for me to play that now

But I'll wait a bit longer. Gametime is free nowadays anyways :3

[adamswagem]

My first char ever was a Retribution Paladin, so it'd be a perfect time for me to play that now

But I'll wait a bit longer. Gametime is free nowadays anyways :3

Yeah they are very strong right now. And free as in you pay for it with gold?

[Deleted]

Yeah they are very strong right now. And free as in you pay for it with gold?

Yup. Got enough gold through farming for 15-20 months gametime

[adamswagem]

Yup. Got enough gold through farming for 15-20 months gametime

nice lol i have enough for about 2 months

[Deleted]

If this first day of new logs is confirmed in the rest of the week there will prolly be more buffs.

[Extremities]

Did quite a few 2-min tests in the class hall yesterday of all 3 specs

Demo came out on top but took tons of time to ramp up. Sat around 215k dps in 845 Ilvl
Destroy came in 2nd. Started off high and slowly goes down thereafter. Sat around 170k
Affliction was just.... shit. Hardly broke 100k.

Granted my gear isn't optimized for each spec but none the less, the numbers are still bad

Come on blizzard. You guys gotta do more. These "buffs" still haven't done much.

[Cainium]

Just posting to confirm, (destro) warlocks still suck balls.

Saying this as someone that with some luck managed to rank over 90th percentile on most fights, only to get vastly outDPSed by many other classes performing weaker still.

Seriously getting irritated at Blizzard over this.

My guild did just normal mode last week, I was on 90+ percentile except for Ursoc (i died) and the eye tree (had full AoE spec and my guild killed the blobs as soon as they spawned - no big Aoe, but still 80th percentile), and was battling with 70 percentile fire mages and rogues for the top 3 in the meters.

So, if nothing changes in skill levels and I can keep the good performance I'll be on top of the meters this week, but not with the big difference that would be there if I would still main my feral from last xpac (I was a lock for MoP and half WoD, than switched to feral, and for Legion back to lock, you cant imagine how much i regret that decision...).

[DocSavageFan]

Even though it was clunky as hell, I wanted to continue with my lock as my main for this expansion, but instead went with my hunter...and damn glad I did! I wish I had more constructive feedback beyond this, but I'm sure that there are a lot of people who have a much better understanding of the problems than I. Locks are broken as hell imo and zero fun to play especially when you have work your ass off just to get marginal dps. They've become pariahs....which is just icing on the cake.

[Deleted]

yes, but lets keep it constructive and positive

We are better than whining, moaning and raging !

----------------------------------------------------------

Mythic logs are up !

Nythendra :

Top Retribution - 463K (this seems to be an extreme case since everyone else is 330K - 380K
Top Rogue - 380K
Top Arms - 375K
Top Enhance - 348K
Top Feral - 340K
Top Monk - 338K
Top Fire - 332K
Top MM - 332K
Top Destruction - 270K
Top Affliction - Couldn't find any Affliction logs for mythic Nythendra

This is the only mythic fight that is up. Quite a lot of logs actually. I was surprised to find so many people already having defeated that boss on mythic and uploaded logs.

As for damage for mythic it looks to be about the same. A 20% buff to destro would put them at 320K dps on that simple Single Target fight. A 30% buff to destro at 351K damage. That is still not enough for making it into the top 5.

Demo is looking better at 300-310K, but still about 6-10% short of being able to compete with the top.

We'll soon here how it's "not a fight that favours destruction"

In other words, it's not a fight where Destruction can shine at the only thing it shines at which is essentially abusing cleave. Without endless Havoc where would destruction be?

And don;t even talk about afflicton. The latest buffs did hardly anything from where affliction is hopelessly weak, which is single target, and bizarrely enough they buffed it even more in the one thing it;s good, which is AOE.

Affliction is virtually dead, it has no function outside of AOE, which they seem dead set on buffing even though it doesn;t need it, whilst leaving single target as utter garbage

I feel I simply couldn;t take my afflock into a +5 or higher Mythic, the damage is simply not there unless the group is carried by something like a dmeon hunter

I don;t see man ylock in Mythic raids, and not one single affliction lock. Not one. Buffs like 100% or more on Drain Soul are required to brin git up to a competetive level

[Jondar]

We'll soon here how it's "not a fight that favours destruction"

In other words, it's not a fight where Destruction can shine at the only thing it shines at which is essentially abusing cleave. Without endless Havoc where would destruction be?

And don;t even talk about afflicton. The latest buffs did hardly anything from where affliction is hopelessly weak, which is single target, and bizarrely enough they buffed it even more in the one thing it;s good, which is AOE.

Affliction is virtually dead, it has no function outside of AOE, which they seem dead set on buffing even though it doesn;t need it, whilst leaving single target as utter garbage

I feel I simply couldn;t take my afflock into a +5 or higher Mythic, the damage is simply not there unless the group is carried by something like a dmeon hunter

I don;t see man ylock in Mythic raids, and not one single affliction lock. Not one.

You're going to "here" exactly what you want to hear. You don't want to see or hear Warlocks doing well, so you will look to no end to find the result you want to find. It's funny that the person you quoted brought up single target fights and included numbers from Destruction and Affliction but not Demonology - which is the best Warlock spec for those fights. I wonder if there's an agenda there?

"Abusing cleave" isn't even something that applies to Destruction because our cleave is almost always on priority targets.

If you can't do +5 Mythics as Affliction, that's a L2P issue. Which is fine. We're all learning. But affliction is fine in Mythics - that is not where people have complaints about the spec. In fact, that is the only place were Affliction can hang. And one spec being dead does not mean the class is dead nor is that a Warlock only problem - most classes have at least one dud spec. Affliction needs work, no doubt.. but sheesh. Make sure your criticisms of the spec are in line with its actual problems if you're going to be so vocal about them. You might confuse the already confused devs