Re-evaluating MM vs BM

[palthis]

Sorry for asking, but what is "AK" ?

Artifact knowledge

[Deleted]

I am BM with 22 points.. Marksmen beats me in mythic only done up to 7 so far though... this is on packs not just bosses..

Probably it's due to aoe burst which bm lacks.. I don't always run volley as I find crows provides more damage in General.. Maybe I am just bad? But you can't really duck up BM aoe rotation..

I think if your with 2 other good dps mm is just better

[Threndsa]

5% of the ~340k dps he did on ursoc would be 17k. Adding in 15% extra KC damage and 3 ticks from AotW and I can easily see going from the 2nd to 3rd gold being an average of 20k dps increase single target and multi-target (to get back to the original point of M+) will jump drastically.

[grm22]

5% of the ~340k dps he did on ursoc would be 17k. Adding in 15% extra KC damage and 3 ticks from AotW and I can easily see going from the 2nd to 3rd gold being an average of 20k dps increase single target and multi-target (to get back to the original point of M+) will jump drastically.

He did 339k on this fight. The problem is, other hunter in MM did 356k... ((

Oh, and ofc he has Roar of the Seven Lions - prob best leg for BM....

[Threndsa]

He did 339k on this fight. The problem is, other hunter in MM did 356k... ((

There was never a question that MM was going to be better. The point was that at a higher artifact level the gap is a little closer. Mythic raiders will, given the option, most likely take MM over BM. But for those of us that aren't Mythic raiders and don't like MM it's a little reassurance that there is a decent boost at the end of the tunnel (or tree I suppose)

[Feanoro]

Would have been great to not be forced into marks for yet another expansion. BM hasn; been viable for more than a patch here and there since BC. Absolute bullshit.

So you didn't play at all during Hello Panda Island Adventure?

[ejpaints]

Sorry for asking, but what is "AK" ?

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As i see from logs, Titan's Thunder did 5.48% dmg on Ursoc mythic kill (check Arriussz on warcraftlogs, cant post here).

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make? That a handful of people actually have it unlocked?

[grm22]

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make? That a handful of people actually have it unlocked?

As i see from Arriussz's logs, yes.

[Sim]

I am not technically worried about it. No Hunter spec has been on top for more than 1 tier, but also not idiot enough to believe change for the sake of change.

IF Blizzard is going to make good on its promise to not have a "cookie cutter" spec to a class and have all viable specs. BM and SV should be seeing more buffs in the future. I just hope MM Hunters dont whine so much about it like they have so far.

[Effinhunter]

You are just perpetuating that meme from inside the community with dog-shit generalised statements like this... As is most of the community with blanket absolutes comparing MM and BM.

I play BM. I min-max to the best of my ability. I learn every mechanic in detail for the encounters I take part in and "playing BM makes you pretty lazy at learning the instances before you go into Mythic+" is simply not true. I could well be the exception to the rule but I very much doubt it.

And as yet, I have only been beaten by a single MM Hunter in the M+ dungeons I have run (Up to level 7 atm). Admittedly, MM could well be stronger M+ 7-10, but I wouldn't know yet. MM is without doubt stronger on the majority of EN HC bosses, but depending on luck, is arguably harder to execute to perfection, allowing BM to maintain a certain degree of competition.

I think the likelihood is that you've played alongside hunters to which have you more skill than. Which makes this a players vs player comparison, not simply a BM vs MM one.

I've been playing against top 100 US guild hunters who have offered to compete with me for fun in mythics. It's also been validated by other hunters in top guilds in their own groups (including in some of the logs listed in the breakdown in OP). I also have some pretty good hunters in my guild, and they would absolutely love to beat me as BM and publicly shame me on these forums (they knew it would cause drama, and they, like most of you, like to read drama). They've tried, repeatedly, to beat me as BM, even investing more than the 13 that people had been claiming was necessary. I actually still play both BM and MM interchangeably throughout the day to keep in practice, so I'm not just saying this as someone who especially likes MM or something. I have 16 currently in BM, and I will push it to 18, probably, before I stop. I'm certainly continually testing the situation.

The link in the first post shows boss performance. In game, on trash, the situation seems even worse because of MM's burst (combined with the burst from the rest of your group, BM doesn't get the sustained AoE that would give it half a chance). My sims with 50% uptime on all adds before they fall off was obviously too conservative. In a group of 6-10, the low health adds get nuked in seconds, and all that's left is usually a few adds. I can't wait until the raid week is over, and we have these easy buffs for Mythic 7+ (Bolstered/Skitter was a nightmare for some comps). Being able to pull huge groups in Mythic+ is something that our havoc DHs and Fire Mages with Living Bomb wanted to do all last week. And when we're pulling those big packs, the MM nukes are going to shine again.

I haven't been basing MM vs BM on arbitrary intuitions or feels. I've been working on staggered add sims to show a conservative estimate of how much MM would beat BM, and this has played out over the past few months (since the sims started, even before expansion hit). Meanwhile, we usually get 1 thread a week with a horde of people continuing to harp on this myth that BM is beating MM in Mythic+. Because of Stampede. Because of Beast Cleave.

It's not true in sims (unless you are running sustained AoE, which is simply incorrect for making this kind of comparison). It's not true in the game. In this min-max quest you've been on, what information sources were you using, exactly?

[arrowsupinya]

For now I have just chosen to raid as BM because I enjoy it more and on most fights right now I'm still in the top 5 dps. Granted I guess I could always do higher damage if I go MM, but do we really think there will be a point where we are forced to do MM due to actual dmg needed? IE Heroics, etc.

Just sucks because it seems like the last few expansions we have been forced into MM if we want to do overall the best DPS and compete with other classes. I'm sure once the rest of my guild gears up to me I'll fall by the waste side if I don't swap to MM.

[Azortharion]

Yeah, except for like, half of the previous expansion. And all of Mists of Pandaria. But whatever.

[Shuken]

I've been playing against top 100 US guild hunters who have offered to compete with me for fun in mythics. It's also been validated by other hunters in top guilds in their own groups (including in some of the logs listed in the breakdown in OP). I also have some pretty good hunters in my guild, and they would absolutely love to beat me as BM and publicly shame me on these forums (they knew it would cause drama, and they, like most of you, like to read drama). They've tried, repeatedly, to beat me as BM, even investing more than the 13 that people had been claiming was necessary. I actually still play both BM and MM interchangeably throughout the day to keep in practice, so I'm not just saying this as someone who especially likes MM or something. I have 16 currently in BM, and I will push it to 18, probably, before I stop. I'm certainly continually testing the situation.

The link in the first post shows boss performance. In game, on trash, the situation seems even worse because of MM's burst (combined with the burst from the rest of your group, BM doesn't get the sustained AoE that would give it half a chance). My sims with 50% uptime on all adds before they fall off was obviously too conservative. In a group of 6-10, the low health adds get nuked in seconds, and all that's left is usually a few adds. I can't wait until the raid week is over, and we have these easy buffs for Mythic 7+ (Bolstered/Skitter was a nightmare for some comps). Being able to pull huge groups in Mythic+ is something that our havoc DHs and Fire Mages with Living Bomb wanted to do all last week. And when we're pulling those big packs, the MM nukes are going to shine again.

I haven't been basing MM vs BM on arbitrary intuitions or feels. I've been working on staggered add sims to show a conservative estimate of how much MM would beat BM, and this has played out over the past few months (since the sims started, even before expansion hit). Meanwhile, we usually get 1 thread a week with a horde of people continuing to harp on this myth that BM is beating MM in Mythic+. Because of Stampede. Because of Beast Cleave.

It's not true in sims (unless you are running sustained AoE, which is simply incorrect for making this kind of comparison). It's not true in the game. In this min-max quest you've been on, what information sources were you using, exactly?

Of course.. if someone is only going to invest 13 in BM.... BM isn't even close to competitive for aoe until furious swipes maxed out and surge of the stormgod ? And talents right after is pack leader which is also huge for single target, then wilderness expert and our 3rd golden talent.

[frebu]

I'm still gonna play Beast Master because we all know MM is gonna get nerfed and Survival is gonna get buffed. Better to just take the mid grade and hope for a few scraps.

*I'm not raiding Mythic so I don't feel the need to be the absolute best that there ever was........but Training them is my cause............hmmm dilemmas.......*

[ydraw]

There's a pretty small sample size in the mythic+ logs you linked. MM is significant ahead in +7 but neck and neck with BM in +6 and +8. That is simply because there aren't enough parses to get reliable stats. Likelihood is that MM is slightly ahead of BM but not by a lot.

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As I've said since way before the expansion hit, MM was going to wipe the floor with BM in Mythic+, especially the higher affixes, with any kind of competent hunter. I've been running with BM hunters in Mythic+ who have legendaries and better gear, and it hasn't even been a competition. They have to switch to MM if they want to compete. I've offered to run with others, given out my bnet handle, and I've had a few takers. I have never lost to a BM hunter, especially not on big trash packs.

You are better than most players.

The logs show that the 2 specs are very close together, with MM slightly ahead, but BM brings Bloodlust and Battle Res while MM does not.

You also need to take into account that most top players will have all their AP in their MM weapon because that spec is far superior for raiding.

[Deleted]

It's like people can't use their brain and think logically about specs. It's pretty simple, MM does it's damage in far superior fashion then BM does and that's why it's always going to be superior. Even on 26 points where BM "overtakes" MM it's still rarely gonna actually be ahead.

Even if BM does more AoE then MM on Sims, you need to remember that it's rarely true that adds are PERFECTLY stacked for your beast cleave if you don't have mass grip/chains in your group. While being pretty much mandatory for BM they do absolutely nothing for MM.

Also a thing many people don't consider, if you take stampede, you're directly competing with trueshot on AoE but now your single target is absolute garbage whilst MM still does well, not to mention the fact that MM has really really good dmg on prio targets during cleave which BM DOES NOT (This alone makes MM far more valuable in a lot of cases).Once MM has it's leg belt it's not even close how hard MM blows BM out of the fucking water on prio targets.

Thing to remember, even if 1 spec is slightly ahead on skada that doesn't mean it's actually better and more useful in reality.

If you don't take stampede you now cannot compete with trueshot while still being only marginally better (if at all) then MM on single target (26 points +only)

Just like Effin, I've played MM the entire time and not once was there a BM that actually did better, and this is especially true higher in M+ you go.

Like I've said in other thread, it depends on the instance/affixes the most but generally a competent MM is going to do better. The only drawback of MM is that a bad player will reck your group with ninja pulls.

[Kwaai]

The logs show that the 2 specs are very close together, with MM slightly ahead, but BM brings Bloodlust and Battle Res while MM does not.

This is an important point. MM can bring these as well, but then it loses 18% of it's AoE damage. Sure you might already have brez, but what if that person dies?

[Azortharion]

You are better than most players.

The logs show that the 2 specs are very close together, with MM slightly ahead, but BM brings Bloodlust and Battle Res while MM does not.

You also need to take into account that most top players will have all their AP in their MM weapon because that spec is far superior for raiding.

He's decidedly average, skill isn't a factor here. That said, doubt he has played with any good BM hunter. Not many of those.

[Deleted]

As a BM i have saved so many mythic encounters by kiting and having my pets tank.

[ydraw]

This is an important point. MM can bring these as well, but then it loses 18% of it's AoE damage. Sure you might already have brez, but what if that person dies?

Bres is definitely the better of the 2 since you can use as many as you have in an encounter, and there is no drums equivalent which there is for BL/Hero.

That said you shouldn't be planning on Bresing too many people because of the time penalty for dying.