[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Morally Grey Storm]

Anything that doesn't involve rushing to AtA, whether you're resetting or moving to Echo after, is the wrong choice.

The fact still stands - it's a long and tedious path.
Also good job on waving off the major bulk of my post

Maths pedantry time: if X increases your damage by 45%, then X represents (45/145) = 31% of your with-X damage. In other words, 31% of our DS damage is artifact traits.

This is sewious. Perhaps I chose the wrong wording. What I meant is we have a total sum of +45% worth of bonus damage to DS.

[OrcsRLame]

Compared to how we level in WoD, it's much harder for us. Our defensives are not what it used to be heck I've died many times because I literally have no tool to use to help myself. Our class still has problems weather you admit it or not.

Note that due to the level scaling in the Broken Isles increases the challenges but our loss of some talents that helped with our defensives (Selfless healer) Supplication and Word of Glory are out of our reach(No the new WoG is a raid CD so it's not the same).

Why are you acting like I just voted for the wrong politician? Leveling is something that shouldn't take you more than like 11 hours anyway, even if you're a bottom tier spec like resto shaman. Quit bitching, level up, then never do it again.

[jackofwind]

Also good job on waving off the major bulk of my post

Not at all, there's just nothing to discuss there. I just think it's interesting that one of the people who is the most adamant about how garbage and undertuned the spec is just so happened to also spec his artifact wrong.

I'm amazed at how many people thought that anything would beat extra burst AoE and 5HP every 30s, it truly boggles my mind at how clueless people are. AFAIC any Ret who read the Artifact talents and decided that Echo was the best thing to go for right away as opposed to AtA has demonstrated that they don't know anything, and their opinions are pretty much meaningless. Not saying that's what you did, just as an aside.

[Monzsterr]

Reposting this from a page back because it seems to have been glossed over. Question has there been a consensus formed on after going the long path to AtA of which gold talent to go for next? I was leaning towards Echo but seeing a lot of talk about AOE damage for the raids and mythic dungeons.

For raiding or PVP I'd go (have have gone) echo, it's generally the most recommended.
For mythic+ I'd go divine tempest since AOE is so much more important. I'm really looking forward to this as so much trash leaves painful shit on the ground it will be nice to be able to stand little more on the edge of a group rather than in the middle.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Why are you acting like I just voted for the wrong politician? Leveling is something that shouldn't take you more than like 11 hours anyway, even if you're a bottom tier spec like resto shaman. Quit bitching, level up, then never do it again.

I think maybe you are taking this too personally, its a disagreement.

[caervek]

Odd question, SimC seems to be using Divine Storm, on patchwerk :S

Is this right?

[Reisar]

Can someone tell me how some rets are doing 500-600k + DPS on Nynthendra Mythic ? I read the logs and i don't understand how are they doing 2M+ damage from VT's while I never did a +1M VT (at 862 ilvl).

They have legendary cloak and % damage increase from finishers is bugged? just a bug in the fight that we can cheese some way or is there something im missing ?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Not at all, there's just nothing to discuss there. I just think it's interesting that one of the people who is the most adamant about how garbage and undertuned the spec is just so happened to also spec his artifact wrong.

I'm amazed at how many people thought that anything would beat extra burst AoE and 5HP every 30s, it truly boggles my mind at how clueless people are. AFAIC any Ret who read the Artifact talents and decided that Echo was the best thing to go for right away as opposed to AtA has demonstrated that they don't know anything, and their opinions are pretty much meaningless. Not saying that's what you did, just as an aside.

The feth are you talking about?
I went long route to AtA without respeccing from the beginning.
And I don't recall respec method being a must or a prerequisite.

But anyway, good job at miserably attempting at ad hominem.
Trying to belittle me instead of rebutting to my opinion is a very greatestest feat.

[jackofwind]

The feth are you talking about?
I went long route to AtA without respeccing from the beginning.
And I don't recall respec method being a must or a prerequisite.

But anyway, good job at miserably attempting at ad hominem.
Trying to belittle me instead of rebutting to my opinion is a very greatestest feat.

There's no point in ever rebutting your opinions because you argue with the stubbornness of a mule. You're not actually here to discuss anything, you're here to bitch and pretend to be an Imperial Guardsman. We get it, you're mega grimdark.

What I'm saying is that going the long way to AtA without respeccing is the wrong way. Objectively. It's sub-par. The fact that you went that way and also bitched about how bad Ret isn't surprising, because you chose a suboptimal path.

It's just interesting to see that it turns out that the most negative person around here chose an inferior Artifact progression path, all while bitching about how bad Ret is.

[Morally Grey Storm]

There's no point in ever rebutting your opinions because you argue with the stubbornness of a mule. You're not actually here to discuss anything, you're here to bitch and pretend to be an Imperial Guardsman.

What I'm saying is that going the long way to AtA without respeccing is the wrong way. Objectively. It's sub-par. The fact that you went that way and also bitched about how bad Ret isn't surprising, because you chose a suboptimal path.

It's just interesting to see that it turns out that the most negative person around here chose an inferior Artifact progression path, all while bitching about how bad Ret is.

More ad hominem please.
Long route W/o respec is not wrong, nor does it have anything to do with issues I am constantly raising about Ret, yet some certain stubborn mule is deadset on driving the only point about how wrong I was regarding artifact speccing.

Does our vulnerability to dispels have anything to do with the way I specced? Does the way I specced diminish this issue somehow?
What about extremely low mobility? Am I wrong regarding this because of the way I specced?
Or am I wrong about our artifact having virtually no interaction with most spenders?
Am I wrong when I point out ES and consecration being utter shite?
Does the way I level my artifact somehow make these issues moot or fake?
And these are but a few of.


I delight in the irony how you say I'm here not for discussion, while all you currently do is ad hominem at me.

[OrcsRLame]

I think maybe you are taking this too personally, its a disagreement.

It's not that I take it personally, it's just that it's an incredibly random disagreement about a subject that I couldn't care less about. Sure, ret is the worst leveling spec in the entire game. Knock yourself out.

[caervek]

Long route W/o respec is not wrong

That's kind of debatable, it's a substandard way of doing it, and it'd not the way that's generally accepted as being the "right" way.

It's not as black and white as "it's not the accepted right way so it must by definition be wrong" because the choice isn't binary, there are multiple ways to do it and it's a little unfair to brand all the sub-optimal ones as wrong, however it's considered to be doing it wrong, similar to using Holy Wrath instead of Crusade or something.

[jackofwind]

Does the way I level my artifact somehow make these issues moot or fake?

It proves that you make bad decisions and have a poor understanding of the relative power of abilities. Unless you're not trying to make the best decisions, in which case you shouldn't really be complaining either. Long route to AtA is objectively a weak choice of progression, nothing can change that.

Dispels: Sure, we get dispelled/spellstolen in PvP and it sucks when it happens. We have always had this weakness, so it's pretty obvious by now that it's intentional.

Low mobility: you can dislike it all you want but we're not the worst out there, and class design says we're supposed to be limited in options. In PvP we actually do fine at sticking on most targets, and those who can run away are intended to be able to do so. It's not going anywhere. In PvE it's fine, there is no issue.

Artifact: Two of our gold traits directly interact with our main ST and AoE spenders, and many of our other nodes do as well. You're just wrong here.

ES/Cons: They obviously need looking at, but we do have a viable option in that tier so I don't really care. I wouldn't want to take either of them regardless of how well they were tuned.

I'm not saying there aren't problems, every class has problems. I'm saying that your doom and gloom is excessive. I'm saying its interesting that the guy who complains the loudest happens to have also chosen a sub-par progression path that gimped his character during the time he's been complaining. This same guy discounts the experiences of people who find less problems with the spec, when they likely have less problems with it because they chose a better progression path. Many of us are well past acquiring our second golden trait, while you've apparently just recently gotten your first one.

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it's a little unfair to brand all the sub-optimal ones as wrong, however it's considered to be doing it wrong, similar to using Holy Wrath instead of Crusade or something.

Yeah, that's true - I shouldn't have said they were wrong. But they are suboptimal. Every moment that you delay getting AtA is time spent with a character vastly underperforming to its potential.

[Nir]

Can someone tell me how some rets are doing 500-600k + DPS on Nynthendra Mythic ? I read the logs and i don't understand how are they doing 2M+ damage from VT's while I never did a +1M VT (at 862 ilvl).

They have legendary cloak and % damage increase from finishers is bugged? just a bug in the fight that we can cheese some way or is there something im missing ?

looks like there was a bug on that fight yesterday that gave us 100% increased damage, it proceeded to work everywhere, I even managed to pull 850k on HoV Mythic+ , too bad I didn't do more.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It proves that you make bad decisions and have a poor understanding of the relative power of abilities. Unless you're not trying to make the best decisions, in which case you shouldn't really be complaining either. Long route to AtA is objectively a weak choice of progression, nothing can change that.

Dispels: Sure, we get dispelled/spellstolen in PvP and it sucks when it happens. We have always had this weakness, so it's pretty obvious by now that it's intentional.

Low mobility: you can dislike it all you want but we're not the worst out there, and class design says we're supposed to be limited in options. In PvP we actually do fine at sticking on most targets, and those who can run away are intended to be able to do so. It's not going anywhere. In PvE it's fine, there is no issue.

Artifact: Two of our gold traits directly interact with our main ST and AoE spenders, and many of our other nodes do as well. You're just wrong here.

ES/Cons: They obviously need looking at, but we do have a viable option in that tier so I don't really care. I wouldn't want to take either of them regardless of how well they were tuned.

I'm not saying there aren't problems, every class has problems. I'm saying that your doom and gloom is excessive. I'm saying its interesting that the guy who complains the loudest happens to have also chosen a sub-par progression path that gimped his character during the time he's been complaining. This same guy discounts the experiences of people who find less problems with the spec, when they likely have less problems with it because they chose a better progression path. Many of us are well past acquiring our second golden trait, while you've apparently just recently gotten your first one.

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Yeah, that's true - I shouldn't have said they were wrong. But they are suboptimal. Every moment that you delay getting AtA is time spent with a character vastly underperforming to its potential.

No. It was my choice to do so as I did not want to use respec method. In no way dud it gimp my leveling experience. Nor does AtA have anything to do with Ret issues. It's a strong talent sure, it helps a lot and us immensely useful. It in no way though helps with aforementioned issues.

Dispels are indeed supposed to be the bane of us(along with any mobile/kiting-proficient class), but here's the gist: in WoD we had 2 charges of HoF along with emancipate to fall back on if the usual happened. And now have this very glorious and useless against any offensive dispel spell called Shield of Vengeance. Do you recall by chance, if any other class in game can have his short-term defensive cd be dispelled? And how about long-term defensives?
Do you think it's okay? Is it "working as intended"? Should we buy this explanation?

Mobility.
Oh but we are, especially so in pvp. There must be a fine line between being able to get away and not having a single chance to catch up.




Artifact.
Dud you know we can have up to four additional spenders which are in no way interacting with artifact?
Am I still wrong? Well how about JV not healing at all if absorbed or overkilled? Still okay?


ES/conc.
Oh well, seeing as you don't care, it clearly makes the point moot and dismisses it as a hollow one.


There is a difference between complaining and pointing issues and criticizing.
And that's what I do - I point out the flaws and criticize the issues. And I did it long before I oh so wrongly talented my artifact.
However interesting for you it might be, I can not care.
The way I leveled my artifact has nothing to do with my points and isdues I raise.
AtA does not magically turn the spec upside down. It does not solve all the flaws. It does not cover all the holes.
But if you wish to beat on this horse for some more, I'm game


Btw, could it occur to you that I started playing in legion sone time later than "many of you"?

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That's kind of debatable, it's a substandard way of doing it, and it'd not the way that's generally accepted as being the "right" way.

It's not as black and white as "it's not the accepted right way so it must by definition be wrong" because the choice isn't binary, there are multiple ways to do it and it's a little unfair to brand all the sub-optimal ones as wrong, however it's considered to be doing it wrong, similar to using Holy Wrath instead of Crusade or something.

Substandard to what?

Freshly leveled Ret, geared in scraps, talented into short route AtA, or sloughing along the long route, will perform that different in each case? Doubt it.
So what's the point?

[Taeldorian]

@Storm the Sorrow

Yeah, if you talented into the short route you would have AtA by the time you leveled up or shortly after. That increases aoe and dps in general which is exactly what you need when pushing mythic+ or just mythic dungeons in general.

It wont make a big difference to casual or semi progressional players like myself, but for players like Laurcus who are in mythic progression guilds it matters, a lot.

[OrcsRLame]

@Storm the Sorrow

Yeah, if you talented into the short route you would have AtA by the time you leveled up or shortly after. That increases aoe and dps in general which is exactly what you need when pushing mythic+ or just mythic dungeons in general.

It wont make a big difference to casual or semi progressional players like myself, but for players like Laurcus who are in mythic progression guilds it matters, a lot.

Hey now, don't take me so seriously. Yeah, my guild does mythic, and we are progression oriented, but we're not competing for top 100 or anything like that. We're small time lol.

[Taeldorian]

Hey now, don't take me so seriously. Yeah, my guild does mythic, and we are progression oriented, but we're not competing for top 100 or anything like that. We're small time lol.

Mythic progression is mythic progression. Obviously it's different from world first but it's still the hardest content in the game. I'm sure you'd want every advantage you can get, which is why I mentioned you there.

I say this because when I was in a heroic 25m guild back when that content was actually hard, I loved competing against my guild mates. I did everything I could to make my character the best and strongest possible so I could compete with them although back then there was a lot of imbalance. I don't mean to project myself onto you, but that's what I assume most mythic raiders do. I loved competing with guildies when we were pushing heroic 25m shit. That's what made progression so fun, and even as a casual now (normal/heroic progression and mythic later) it's what makes progression fun. That's just my opinion though.


That brings me to this. I wonder how the rets that were in the world first race did. I know solsacra was competing on his ret but there were actually a few more in the EU guilds. Wonder how they did.

[jackofwind]

Freshly leveled Ret, geared in scraps, talented into short route AtA, or sloughing along the long route, will perform that different in each case? Doubt it.
So what's the point?

This says it all. AtA is a massive boost, immediately upon getting it. It's nearly on-demand burst, it's massive HP generation, and it's much-needed AoE.

If you don't get it right away you're gimping yourself, that's just an objective fact.

As for opinions:

The fact that you consider utility spells that use Holy Power "finishers" says a lot about where you're coming from. Have you even looked at the other classes trees? They don't have nodes directly relating to all of their utility spells either - especially when they're talented as is the case with Ret. If your Artifact boosts a talented ability that you don't spec into it's a wasted node. This is just a ludicrous argument to make.

I do, in fact, think that SoV being able to be offensively dispelled is fine considering that: We have reduced duration forbearance. We can attack through BoP and bubble. We can have bubble on a 2.5m CD. Despite your anecdotal evidence, Rets are performing fine at the moment in 3v3, are very strong in 1v1, and have the same weaknesses to offensive dispels as we always have. Go figure.

We also have new utility (talented): a constant AoE pulse of Disease/Poison Dispel, which is insanely strong passive utility. We have a built-in snare on one of our rotational abilities alongside the untalented snare itself, or a single-target speed boost to hand out. We also have one of the very few ways in the whole game to remove silence from a player, on a relatively short CD. We have a massive melee-based defensive CD in EfaE, as well as finally getting a cheat death mechanic.

Do we have weaknesses? Sure. Are we the steaming pile of dogshit that you'd have everyone believe we are? Not even close.

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Mythic progression is mythic progression. Obviously it's different from world first but it's still the hardest content in the game. I'm sure you'd want every advantage you can get, which is why I mentioned you there.

I say this because when I was in a heroic 25m guild back when that content was actually hard, I loved competing against my guild mates. I did everything I could to make my character the best and strongest possible so I could compete with them although back then there was a lot of imbalance. I don't mean to project myself onto you, but that's what I assume most mythic raiders do.

It is what most of us do. If you had tried to come into our raids this week as a Ret without having AtA, for whatever reason, you'd have been benched. Last week when we were doing Heroic you'd have been benched as well. There's just no way that anyone should take someone seriously who claims to be held back by the spec when they wilfully choose a sub-optimal progression path.

Storm's criticisms are all based around PvP, which is fine - but if I had a Ret on my RBG or 3v3 team who didn't have AtA I'd be benching them too.

[Alenko]

So are the stat weights in the op updated for the most recent hotfix buff? Noticed they were posted prior to the buff, wasn't sure if they were from runs on the PTR or what.