Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[mikeezy]

Do you understand how percentiles work? Yes? No? Cause it doesn't sound like you do. We all understand that there are more bad players than good players yes? We all understand that there are many many more rogues playing Outlaw than say Assassination yes? So do you understand that the more players that are playing a spec, the more it skews the percentile dps numbers? Looking at "the top 10% of Spec 1" and the "the top 10% of spec 2" will show wildly different numbers if there's only 1000 playing Spec 1 and 10000 playing Spec 2.

Even if that assumption were true, how many of those "bad" players are the ones who will put in time uploading logs? A lower percentile will work better in catching a more accurate range of how outlaw actually works. The longer the raids are out, more and more logs will be posted, at which point the top 10% gets closer to just being bloated with 6 rolls (and back to back 6 rolls), and THAT is what will really skew everything. The best way to counterbalance that would be to also account for a larger range, where people are rolling singles over and over. I'm with you in that outlaw isn't completely dead. There are cases where I still believe it will do well. But I do believe you're just making invalid arguments to further your cause.

[Sephiroso]

Even if that assumption were true, how many of those "bad" players are the ones who will put in time uploading logs? A lower percentile will work better in catching a more accurate range of how outlaw actually works. The longer the raids are out, more and more logs will be posted, at which point the top 10% gets closer to just being bloated with 6 rolls (and back to back 6 rolls), and THAT is what will really skew everything. The best way to counterbalance that would be to also account for a larger range, where people are rolling singles over and over. I'm with you in that outlaw isn't completely dead. There are cases where I still believe it will do well. But I do believe you're just making invalid arguments to further your cause.

It only takes 1 person in the entire raid to be logging for all those "bad players" to show up on WCL. And something elfporn said, that we shouldn't only be looking at the top 10 as that isn't a large enough measure, i agree with that. But you can also just sort EN individual bosses by class and see way more than the top 10, and you'll see the majority of rogues that are on the top of the charts are Outlaw. Even if you go as far back as to see the top 1000, the majority will be Outlaw. For pretty much every fight, every difficulty, and there are rogues in those top placements that didn't roll more than 3 buffs in the entire fight so you can't just point to "they got god rolls".

[Deleted]

Hey there! I rerolled rogue this expansion and everything is going fine and all.
I only hit low rankings on logs. Which is kind of worrying. I am not sure what I exactly am doing wrong so I hope any of you could help me out.
warcraftlogs.com/reports/VwWhjHz2g7mY6aZM (am cabbagecat)

[GiefEpixe]

Jesus these last two pages. Some people really grasp for any straw they can find to "support" their view. How anyone can seriously argue that Outlaw is still king is completely beyond me. Anyhow...

Not sure if someone else noticed, but thanks to the efforts of fellow Pirates in the official forums, we were able to get a somewhat hidden acknowledgement of our concerns after the nerf:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...n-thee/#post34

Of course, it's not a very substantial reply but at least we know the topic is on their radar and one can only hope they're able to grasp the main issue with the changes: Flip-flopping on spec hierarchy and the uncertainty this move created for players who are always trying to get the most out of their character. Looking forward to the discussion and hopefully people are able to specifically point out that issue to them.

[Xanatu]

Outlaw is the worst rogue spec overall (probably the worst spec people are actually playing, in general) in EN, and individually the worst on every fight. It's still this bad considering every rogue geared/legendaried for it as well, imagine what the numbers would look like if we had just mained something else in the first place. I know it's a limited sample but this is damning stuff.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...LIKEQUOTEPREV#

[synnap]

So, as someone who's switching to Rogue as his main, is it worth it to start gearing/spending AP into Assassination or Sub now instead of Outlaw?

[Deleted]

@synnap
Better go Sub as Outlaw isn't everyones kinda of alcohol ... matey

[Generical]

Outlaw is the worst rogue spec overall (probably the worst spec people are actually playing, in general) in EN, and individually the worst on every fight. It's still this bad considering every rogue geared/legendaried for it as well, imagine what the numbers would look like if we had just mained something else in the first place. I know it's a limited sample but this is damning stuff.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...LIKEQUOTEPREV#

If that's any indication of Outlaw's position after more numbers are in, I'm almost inclined to stick with it because there's no way they'd let it fall that far down without some kind of compensatory buffs.

[Xanatu]

If that's any indication of Outlaw's position after more numbers are in, I'm almost inclined to stick with it because there's no way they'd let it fall that far down without some kind of compensatory buffs.

The ol' "so bad they have to fix it" method?

[GiefEpixe]

Outlaw is the worst rogue spec overall (probably the worst spec people are actually playing, in general) in EN, and individually the worst on every fight. It's still this bad considering every rogue geared/legendaried for it as well, imagine what the numbers would look like if we had just mained something else in the first place. I know it's a limited sample but this is damning stuff.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...LIKEQUOTEPREV#

What a joke...

[Deleted]

it is pretty unwise to spent all your ap in one spec...

the logs of the first boss of EN are still bugged, because the rot debuff is applied to your damage. Its mostly 10% of the overall dps.

[Roiids]

Really frustrating is all I can say.... As most of you have said... they went exactly against what they said they were going to do.

You finally get used to a spec and then have to learn a new one to perfection and get the AP into a new spec because Blizz cant figure out how to tune shit without breaking another.

[Greylan]

it is pretty unwise to spent all your ap in one spec...

Unless you're a hybrid with only one DPS spec, then you don't get punished by spec "balancing" like this.

[mauserr]

Welp, looks like I'm going back to my Marks hunter which I had geared better than my rogue is. I abandonned a class which performed better and was a better choice for raids because I loved how Outlaw played during levelling (pre nerfs). After they nerfed it... oh boy. I can't stand the butchered version of Subtlety, it feels like shit, but so does Outlaw now after the energy nerfs. I could live with the RT damage nerfs, but man, I fucking despise rerolling RtB so many times because of these 1 buff streaks. The energy changes made it even worse.

Will most likely keep AP reserach going while doing AP world quest so that once Outlaw is fun to play again as opposed to frustrating, I can go back.

[shaunika123]

To rescue this thread from the QQ of nerfs...

I got Thraxi's Tricksy Treads last night. Should be I be rolling Hit and Run over Grapp/Acro?

yes

unless the fight demands grappling, hit and run is only 3% run through dmg so it wont change the world but it is good nonetheless

[Roiids]

Hit and Run is the go to with those... as its a permanent baseline damage increase.

[Deleted]

guys..i dont get it ...all says versa is prio after agi ...but i dont think is right ...idk . ...i got around 14% versa and dps max 200k with 853 ILvl ...but 200k is when i got nice RTB (Usualy i got 160k-170k)...i think mastery still rullz...specially when u got fortune strike 3x...means 30% incr dmg ffrom main gauche idk..can someone make me to get it right...idk what to do with that rogue is true i dont got too high ILVl but i'm sure i can do more dps...idk..thx

[Xanatu]

guys..i dont get it ...all says versa is prio after agi ...but i dont think is right ...idk . ...i got around 14% versa and dps max 200k with 853 ILvl ...but 200k is when i got nice RTB (Usualy i got 160k-170k)...i think mastery still rullz...specially when u got fortune strike 3x...means 30% incr dmg ffrom main gauche idk..can someone make me to get it right...idk what to do with that rogue is true i dont got too high ILVl but i'm sure i can do more dps...idk..thx

"My damage is bad so stat weights are wrong". Good analysis. Try improving your rotation and studying logs?

[Gentlepenguin]

guys..i dont get it ...all says versa is prio after agi ...but i dont think is right ...idk . ...i got around 14% versa and dps max 200k with 853 ILvl ...but 200k is when i got nice RTB (Usualy i got 160k-170k)...i think mastery still rullz...specially when u got fortune strike 3x...means 30% incr dmg ffrom main gauche idk..can someone make me to get it right...idk what to do with that rogue is true i dont got too high ILVl but i'm sure i can do more dps...idk..thx

Our damage revolves around Run Through atm, so mastery is meh, and haste is pretty bad. You shouldn't be rerolling buffs so much that you lose damage.

[Deleted]

Simed my rogue, and I do sim it every couple nights.
I have 11% haste (3.7k rating) and Versa just became equal to haste.
If I remember correctly, it was stated, that haste is better "Pre-raid", but we should focus on versa on myth raid gear, also, some guides (for ex. Infexious Gaming) recommend that we sim our chars, to see which stat is better.
From my point of view: more haste -> more energy regen and more attack speed -> more attack speed more combat potency proc, which means more energy
More energy, I can reroll faster if needed, also it means more Run Through.