Protection legion Discussion

[ReD-EyeD]

No way 10 more rage on SS buffs a mythic ursoc fight rage gen by 21%. Do you have the log I can't find it ?

Ursoc is not a single tank encounter so no surprise here that you only spam SS/Revenge while waiting for a switch. Single tank numbers would be MUCH different with a minus symbol.

[Opeth69]

I've noticed some prot wars running never surrender in raids is it worth using if you let your hp drop below 50% each time

[ReD-EyeD]

I've noticed some prot wars running never surrender in raids is it worth using if you let your hp drop below 50% each time

It's better in very predictable damage spikes encounters. Mathematically it will lead to much more mitigation, especially that you lower your HP for more rage/hp gain, but overall +25% hp/IP is safer bet.

[Ellianar]

Ursoc is not a single tank encounter so no surprise here that you only spam SS/Revenge while waiting for a switch.

You're taking damages from him most of the times regardless. Ursoc is the fight with the biggest differernce between generated rage from damage taken and from abilities. Last kill on HC got me at 1750 rage generated from damage taken and 420 from SS, with the buff it puts me at 840 rage from SS. A mere 12% increase. I can't believe that harder hitting mm ursoc gives a 21% increase.

[Arbiter]

I'm going to use my Mythic Ursoc kill as reference. Just woke up, apologies for any screwed up math.

Pre-Nerf:
RFDT - 1831
SS - 505
Revenge - 45
Intercept - 12

The change would buff the rage from SS up to 1110 on that fight. A ~21% increase. Of course it's going to change slightly depending on the fight, your actions, whether you cheesed the fight for more damage taken, etc, but it's not too far off that in some of the logs I checked. Now because of so many factors it's hard to be completely accurate especially when he didn't link logs, but just looking at static rage usage we can assume he probably used Shield Block about 20 times during that fight. If he didn't use rage on anything else but Ignore Pain that entire fight, the rage increase would've gained him just about ~30% more Ignore Pains that fight. That's disregarding Focused Rage and Vengeance. I'd imagine it's even less of a nerf for Vengeance users considering Vengeance changes since it actually costs rage to use Vengeance now rather than 50/50.

So maybe a tiny nerf to Mythic content and equal or buffed in other content? Of course this is just a quick number crunch of it's going to vary fight to fight and player to player so it may be a bit more of a nerf in some cases especially if it's even more damage taken.

[Elbob]

No way 10 more rage on SS buffs a mythic ursoc fight rage gen by 21%. Do you have the log I can't find it ?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=8&spell=101

if the changes had been in last week I would have gained an extra 530 rage from ss. Which is just over 20% of what I gained total over the fight. At the same time I would have lost 20million from existing IP's and gained ~7.2million from the extra rage gained.... resulting in about 13million lost absorbs which is ~20% of my total. Thats a big nerf.

[Arbiter]

Last kill on HC got me at 1750 rage generated from damage taken and 420 from SS, with the buff it puts me at 840 rage from SS. A mere 12% increase. I can't believe that harder hitting mm ursoc gives a 21% increase.

That's actually a 19% increase in rage if you aren't considering rage gained from Intercept and Revenge. Little less when you consider them, but not by much less since they don't account for much. You probably weren't getting that many Shield Slam resets.

[maverick1625]

Is it intended that SS not generate 20 rage all the time or a bug, sometimes it's only generating 15 rage, anyone else notice this??

[Arbiter]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=8&spell=101

if the changes had been in last week I would have gained an extra 530 rage from ss. Which is just over 20% of what I gained total over the fight. At the same time I would have lost 20million from existing IP's and gained ~7.2million from the extra rage gained.... resulting in about 13million lost absorbs which is ~20% of my total. Thats a big nerf.

The only problem with that calculation is that the 20million is consisting of Vengeance IPs and Dragon Scales while the other 7.2mil you calculated isn't. Dragon Scales wouldn't make that big of a difference considering it won't make it proc even more (unless you're aren't using 60 rage IPs for Dragon Scales 100% of the time), but since you're using Vengeance it makes it more difficult to calculate how much more IP absorbs you would gain from the extra rage.

[Elbob]

The only problem with that calculation is that the 20million is consisting of Vengeance IPs and Dragon Scales while the other 7.2mil you calculated isn't. Dragon Scales wouldn't make that big of a difference considering it won't make it proc even more (unless you're aren't using 60 rage IPs for Dragon Scales 100% of the time), but since you're using Vengeance it makes it more difficult to calculate how much more IP absorbs you would gain from the extra rage.

I would not be gaining more DS procs, so all added IP are assumed 800k (current IP value on live). So its a 33% reduction on all cast in the fight plus the added non procs.

edit: unless I decided to take revenge out of my rotation in hopes of more SS resets which would minorly improve the uptime of SB and possibly result in 1-2 more DS procs, but thats a lot of ifs.

[Arbiter]

I would not be gaining more DS procs, so all added IP are assumed 800k (current IP value on live). So its a 33% reduction on all cast in the fight plus the added non procs.

Which I did mention as well as the fact that if you aren't using full 60 rage IPs for all Dragon Scale procs then that would actually matter because the extra rage would help with that.

Vengeance was more my point though. Because it's no longer 50% and actually costs rage to weave in Focused Rage still which screws with the calculations. The IP nerf actually hits the Vengeance talent more than the others, but my point is that is screws up calculations on how much of a potential nerf the changes are in that particular situation.

My quick calculations were that it's hardly a nerf for a non Vengeance build for M Ursoc, but the difference it makes for Vengeance is more difficult to calculate though it definitely sees a bigger nerf by logic.

[Elbob]

Vengeance was more my point though. Because it's no longer 50% and actually costs rage to weave in Focused Rage still which screws with the calculations. The IP nerf actually hits the Vengeance talent more than the others, but my point is that is screws up calculations on how much of a potential nerf the changes are in that particular situation.

My quick calculations were that it's hardly a nerf for a non Vengeance build for M Ursoc, but the difference it makes for Vengeance is more difficult to calculate though it definitely sees a bigger nerf by logic.

A Vengeance combo costs ~58 rage assuming you don't let one of the buffs fall, I've rounded it for simplicity sake to 60, to 2 rage difference is not going to ruin any of the numbers to the degree that it ruins the argument.

Maybe I'm missing your point, which if you could clarify I'd appreciate it. But from where I'm standing IP is essentially always 60(58 but lets not squabble over nickels and dimes) rage regardless of using post nerf vengeance or not. Since the log is from a kill that is post veng nerf we can assume the rage spent on the kill would be spent the same way this week but with an extra 530 rage that would exclusively be spent on non DS proc'd IP's at a rate of 60(58 lul) rage per = 9 (8.8 lul) more IPs.

edit: also assuming I don't change my rotation to skip revenge so the number of ultimatum procs and SB uptime remain the same.

[Squishei]

The change would buff the rage from SS up to 1110 on that fight. A ~21% increase. Of course it's going to change slightly depending on the fight, your actions, whether you cheesed the fight for more damage taken, etc, but it's not too far off that in some of the logs I checked. Now because of so many factors it's hard to be completely accurate especially when he didn't link logs, but just looking at static rage usage we can assume he probably used Shield Block about 20 times during that fight. If he didn't use rage on anything else but Ignore Pain that entire fight, the rage increase would've gained him just about ~30% more Ignore Pains that fight. That's disregarding Focused Rage and Vengeance. I'd imagine it's even less of a nerf for Vengeance users considering Vengeance changes since it actually costs rage to use Vengeance now rather than 50/50.

So maybe a tiny nerf to Mythic content and equal or buffed in other content? Of course this is just a quick number crunch of it's going to vary fight to fight and player to player so it may be a bit more of a nerf in some cases especially if it's even more damage taken.

Logs were private or I would have. 27 Shield Blocks on that same attempt. It would be more of a nerf to vengeance users because you need to divide all IPs used while under vengeance [pre-nerf] (which I have assumed to be most, because just doing rough math) by 1.1 to account for the bug.

[Arbiter]

A Vengeance combo costs ~58 rage assuming you don't let one of the buffs fall, I've rounded it for simplicity sake to 60, to 2 rage difference is not going to ruin any of the numbers to the degree that it ruins the argument.

Maybe I'm missing your point, which if you could clarify I'd appreciate it. But from where I'm standing IP is essentially always 60(58 but lets not squabble over nickels and dimes) rage regardless of using post nerf vengeance or not. Since the log is from a kill that is post veng nerf we can assume the rage spent on the kill would be spent the same way this week but with an extra 530 rage that would exclusively be spent on non DS proc'd IP's at a rate of 60(58 lul) rage per = 9 (8.8 lul) more IPs.

edit: also assuming I don't change my rotation to skip revenge so the number of ultimatum procs and SB uptime remain the same.

Error in my thought process. You're right. I don't know why I thought Vengeance costed more rage to use with the nerf (Probably because I haven't been on much this week). It's just simply not a gain in rage. Of course this still implies that you don't let the buff fall off and you don't ever use IP outside of max rage usage (so 39 rage with Vengeance I suppose?)

While your calculations are still based on perfect Vengeance and Dragon Scales usage, I'm still curious as to where that much is being accounted for. ~30% more IP usage shouldn't translate into that much of a loss with a 33% nerf to the absorption amount. Perfect Dragon Scale usage accounting for it all?

[Elbob]

Error in my thought process. You're right. I don't know why I thought Vengeance costed more rage to use with the nerf (Probably because I haven't been on much this week). It's just simply not a gain in rage. Of course this still implies that you don't let the buff fall off and you don't ever use IP outside of max rage usage (so 39 rage with Vengeance I suppose?)

While your calculations are still based on perfect Vengeance and Dragon Scales usage, I'm still curious as to where that much is being accounted for. ~30% more IP usage shouldn't translate into that much of a loss with a 33% nerf to the absorption amount. Perfect Dragon Scale usage accounting for it all?

My IP usage was not perfect for sure my average IP cast value was for 52 rage (max 60 and yes accounting for the 16 ultimatum procs i got), thats rather substantial error on paper but in a raid situation if you are hanging at 50% a 50 rage IP isnt the worst thing in the world. Yes I am assuming the newly gained IP's are all 60 rage but suppose that should be easier with SS being a higher generator.

about 2625 rage was spent on IPs/veng combos in 51 casts the new rage with generate 9 more so its about 18% more IP's in my non perfect rotation. I should have cast a few less IP's in sake of them being stronger on average so we can probably bump that 18% to somewhere more around 20-22% but I def don't think 30% more IP's is going to happen from the SS rage buff and the absorb amount I lost was only around 20% after all changes were accounted for.

edit: Variables
Elbob sucks at his rotation, but in raid non perfect play should be expected
assumed new rage is spent perfectly - not much should change from this with SS making 60 rage IP's easier
not accounting for rotational advantage of only using revenge the gcd immediately before ss in hopes of gen'ing more SS resets

So if my rage was more effectively spent I would probably see closer to 46 casts of IP but overall a couple million gain in total IP absorbs. The nerf will still fluctuate from a 15-20% absorb loss (varying with how bad on I am on the week) even after the new rage is spent optimally on IP. SO assuming really solid play the nerf is not quite the 20% I was seeing at first but still substantial.

[Atoned]

So, is Vengeance only better because it's bugged or is it better either way? I'm looking at what build I should be running now for Mythic raids. Also, not to bring this back up again, but does the recent change make any staggering changes to our stat priority?

[Deleted]

So mastery>haste>versa now? Would be nice to use exact same gear for prot and arms.

[Larynx]

So, is Vengeance only better because it's bugged or is it better either way? I'm looking at what build I should be running now for Mythic raids. Also, not to bring this back up again, but does the recent change make any staggering changes to our stat priority?

For pure rage, Vengeance is better if you have ultimatum. Booming Shout has potential for 5 mans, and into the fray is just garbage in general for rage generation (although it does buff SB by a bit).

These were the numbers I got really quickly, just in case you want some context here.

Vengeance: 21 rage per SS crit. 1.5 Rage per FR+IP cycle (second part is useless, but with bugged FR this becomes 27 rage per SS and 10-15 rage per IP cycle depending on how you want to look at the values)

Booming Voice: 31 rage per 60s, or 50 rage per 60s with your 3rd gold. You only need a few crits a minute to beat this even with the non-bugged Vengeance.

Into the Fray: Works out to about 10 extra rage a minute at 5 stacks. You get a 11.3s CD for Shield Block, down from a 13s. That's a 15% gain, unsurprisingly. With Heavy Repercussions, you could see a lot more uptime for SB this way, but it's not very useful for most bosses. With the new hotfix, Into the Fray would be 20 extra rage a minute at 5 stacks.

For stat priority, I don't know about the exact priority, but Versatility is lower, and Mastery and Haste are higher relative weights. Who the fuck knows atm.

[Anuibus]

So, is Vengeance only better because it's bugged or is it better either way? I'm looking at what build I should be running now for Mythic raids. Also, not to bring this back up again, but does the recent change make any staggering changes to our stat priority?

Vengeance isn't bugged anymore, but it+ultimatum is still better than the competition

[Anbokr]

Man, running m+ today felt really bad. This is taking some time to get used to, whereas before you could just stockpile and forget about IP, now it's gone about as quickly as you put it up.