Instant Gratification

[Jewsco]

i wasnt maxed with any faction in vanilla 3 weeks of release. i even wasnt max lvl. in legion, i am max faction with 3 of 6 reps now, and my main has 3 golden dragons on his mainspec and 2 on offspec. The only grind is getting lvl 3 recipes for some professions.

People like you also seem to miss the fact that the whole game was new then with all of Azeroth to explore. Which is way bigger than just the broken islands. With no riding,let alone flying, till level 40 and that was if you could afford it. No fast riding till max level that near no one could afford. No group finder, looking for dungeon or raid. And finally next to no sites like this to go for help or you tube.
Think all that maybe played a part in the "grind" of vanilla?

Oh and next to no addons too.

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I remember when work meant being rewarded for it and that was 90% of the game.

The moment they began changing everything to catter to the lazy gamer or the gamer that only plays 1 hour a day but wants to be rewarded as if he played 8, was the moment the game started to feel less like WoW should supposed to feel.

Even PvP, they managed to ruin it this expansion. The only part of the game that even though wasn't constantly good, I deemed generally good. Now even PvP is a bunch of rng.

Even the gear, how despicable is that.

Really pvp was good or even close to balance in WoD? No reason whatsoever most switched to human for racial right?
Heck was pvp ever really balanced anyway?

[PowerOfTwo]

I can't figure out the point, but I will say that the community has become way too entitled and way too loud. Every time I read a thread saying "blizzard doesn't communicate enough" on a thread about why a spec is the 8th best spec instead of the 2nd best spec makes me feel really bad for blizzard. I used to think it was a dream job, but I honestly feel so many are leaving the company because after 10 years of listening to complainers they want to find something with a player base who actually WANTS to enjoy the game.

Kind of a cop out but it is true. People complain as much as they do becuase they WANT to enjoy the game again. And i still do, raiding with 19 other drunk, high, butthurt manchildren i've known for years is one of the best experiences on the internet imo... i just wish Blizzard would stop trying to make me tap dance on a spiked coffee table to do it... and the spikes are covered in lemon juice... and the table is on fire... on the moon....

Technicaly speaking the french revelutionaries where "just complaining" to.... thill it turned bloody.

[tikcol]

People like you also seem to miss the fact that the whole game was new then with all of Azeroth to explore. Which is way bigger than just the broken islands. With no riding,let alone flying, till level 40 and that was if you could afford it. No fast riding till max level that near no one could afford. No group finder, looking for dungeon or raid. And finally next to no sites like this to go for help or you tube.
Think all that maybe played a part in the "grind" of vanilla?

Oh and next to no addons too.

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Really pvp was good or even close to balance in WoD? No reason whatsoever most switched to human for racial right?
Heck was pvp ever really balanced anyway?

You're right, I didn't play much WoD either. It was at least bearable for a while.

[Jewsco]

You're right, I didn't play much WoD either. It was at least bearable for a while.

So up to two expansions with bad pvp. Did you play mop when pvp became a stun lock nightmare? Boy that was fun to be stun locked by a warlock and its pet for 20 seconds while the warlock pounded on you. Or if pvped geared enough a shadow priest one or two shotting someone with mind sear.
Heck, once they put resilience on gear pvp went bad and that was cata or wotlk.

[tikcol]

So up to two expansions with bad pvp. Did you play mop when pvp became a stun lock nightmare? Boy that was fun to be stun locked by a warlock and its pet for 20 seconds while the warlock pounded on you. Or if pvped geared enough a shadow priest one or two shotting someone with mind sear.
Heck, once they put resilience on gear pvp went bad and that was cata or wotlk.

My point, as explained in my first post, is that PvP has been in decline. I agree with you that there were problems back then.

We seem to disagree on the point that it is the worst it has ever been, and that is ok.

resilience was tbc*

[Paulosio]

There's a difference between a long grind with a guaranteed reward, and one that revolves around praying to RNGesus more than anything else. Guess which one Legion is. I never did the grind myself, but at least Grand Marshal and High Warlord gave you a guarantee. Legiondaries, you could go the whole expansion without getting one, and your guildy has 2 equipped for every spec, and another has one on multiple alts.

I doubt you could go the entire expansion without getting 1 unless even if you are 1 of those people who literally only logs in for raids and is never seen the rest of the week. There is bad luck protection. Sooner or later you are going to get a legendary... We are only 5 weeks into the xpac. Probably about 5-10% through it at most so just because lots of people don't have 1 yet is no indication that they wont sooner rather than later.

As OP's comments about instant gratification / there not being enough grind... I've seen plenty of people complaining that artifact power and world quests are too grindy. Personally I like that there is always something I can be working towards.. In fact i'm struggling to find time to do all the things i'd like to do like levelling my new battle pets or farming for some of the new mounts like the pink hippogryph and Ozumat stuff, working towards some of the hidden artifact skins or levelling professions and alts. I've been playing at least 5 hours a day and normally more and I still can't find time to do this stuff.

[bufferunderrun]

Three difficulties plus Raid Finder means that there is a raid difficulty for all of the different groups. Normal for friends, family, and PuGs. Heroic for guilds that are formed for the purpose of raiding, Mythic for the extremely hardcore players.

"If you read Blizzard's post it says "Three difficulties plus Raid Finder" If it were four raid levels there would be no reason to separate raid finder into its own separate category. As they did, they clearly are reinforcing that Raid Finder is not real raiding. It goes even further than that though, as they explain who exactly Normal, Heroic, and Mythic are for, while leaving Raid Finder completely out of the discussion. Again, if it were real raiding they would explain who it was for in the same post."

post by @Thetruth1400

And i agree completely with his interpretation of the Blizzard's post

Blizzard reason to distinguish raid finder from other is the auto-matchmaking vs manual

i recommend this good editorial http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles...oking-for-raid

[Lolsteak]

Three difficulties plus Raid Finder means that there is a raid difficulty for all of the different groups. Normal for friends, family, and PuGs. Heroic for guilds that are formed for the purpose of raiding, Mythic for the extremely hardcore players.

"If you read Blizzard's post it says "Three difficulties plus Raid Finder" If it were four raid levels there would be no reason to separate raid finder into its own separate category. As they did, they clearly are reinforcing that Raid Finder is not real raiding. It goes even further than that though, as they explain who exactly Normal, Heroic, and Mythic are for, while leaving Raid Finder completely out of the discussion. Again, if it were real raiding they would explain who it was for in the same post."

post by @Thetruth1400

And i agree completely with his interpretation of the Blizzard's post

Except that we have trinkets and sets added back, If that were to hold true LFR would still be like WoD.

Plus you seem to overlook the fact that they call it raiding themselves

Three difficulties plus Raid Finder means that there is a raid difficulty for all of the different groups.

[Teddybearavenger]

Times change, as do people. WoW is no longer the extreme grind it used to be. Then again, a great many things about WoW have changed, including its community and playerbase. Nothing stays the same forever. But as I read through just the first few pages of the forum, I see so many opinions about instant gratification.

The constant need to use flying mounts instead of walking or using ground mounts and other modes of transportation. Instantly hopping over interference to get to the goal/boss/loot/chest.

Not being able to do the two artifact quests in LFR has a few people upset. LFR is simply a "see the content" version of Raiding. At least Blizz seems to agree.

Blizz should allow pathfinder to increase alt speeds as well according to this OP, so there is no real need to achieve anything with alts since they want mains to do the heavy lifting.

Another poster hates that Legendaries are based on RNG instead of being guaranteed with harder content. There are 3 of these threads in various forms, each believing Legendaries should either be locked to mythic or tied to some long quest chain, and RNG drops are unacceptable.

I get that most of us have lives, and have allotted a specific amount of time to play each day/week, but have we really become so motivated by instant gratification? Am I the only one who still recalls how RNG worked even back in TBC? Not everyone had one, and those who did were viewed in many different ways. I know I was envious a time or two, but after farming BT long enough, my Rogue had glaives. RNG has always been a thing. MMOs have always been a time sink. We didn't always have 3-5 flight paths in every zone, let alone flight anywhere but Outlands. We knew what it took to get keys for heroics, and attunements. We might not have loved it, but we did it, because that was the game.

Am I off base here, or do MMOs in today's age feel more like games of entitlement? Thoughts?

So no one here has played Legion? With it's exaggerated grind on literally eveyrything? Not only time gaps but raid gaps but days gaps in between your dailies. You have an alt? well fuck your alt because he will get nowhere near your main for a very long time. Ridiculous how hard they went on making sure gated time lapses prevent us from progressing further in our artifacts, reputations and other specs while 100% ignoring alts exist.

[Traveler Voltin]

So no one here has played Legion? With it's exaggerated grind on literally eveyrything? Not only time gaps but raid gaps but days gaps in between your dailies. You have an alt? well fuck your alt because he will get nowhere near your main for a very long time. Ridiculous how hard they went on making sure gated time lapses prevent us from progressing further in our artifacts, reputations and other specs while 100% ignoring alts exist.

onto the alt thing. its not just a casual thing.
i was once told by a raider in either cata or MoP. that a good raider will have a main and like 2-3 alts on stand by just in case something goes wrong. if something gets nerfed to hard, etc.
so its pretty much screwing everyone on the alt issue.

[ChronoSul]

1. People would rather fly over mobs than fight them.
2. LFR instead of real raiding means tougher, better gear, takes longer.
3. Never before in WoW history has an alt benefited from the main being exalted. They want to avoid the work on alts.
4. RNG worked just fine in Vanilla, TBC, and Wrath. Not everyone was walking around with items, and the raiders weren't catered to.

All signs of wanting stuff now, and taking the easier path. Hence the instant gratification.

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I never favored the extreme grind, but I did like knowing I had to work for it. I was not just being handed purple gear from a chest on an isle without flight.

Actually there had been 2 times in this games history that I can think of off the top of my head where Alts benefited from a main being exalted or revered. The first being in MoP with the item that increased the amount of rep you got from a rep account wife after u got revered. The second being during WoD with its pathfinder achievement.

[Jewsco]

My point, as explained in my first post, is that PvP has been in decline. I agree with you that there were problems back then.

We seem to disagree on the point that it is the worst it has ever been, and that is ok.

resilience was tbc*

So it has been bad since tbc then longer than i thought.
If pvp is ones thing this proves wow wasn't the game for that as there many other better pvp games out there

[-Joker-]

Did you really needed to make a thread about that? I mean your view on things

If you disapprove, you are welcome to contact a moderator. To my knowledge, it is related to the game and is not in violation of the rules.

[Afrospinach]

2. Cannons exist. Go to Blades Edge demon camps. Mobs there dismount you. Dismounting mobs has been in the game since 2007 and yet we're pretending like they don't exist.

Just want to say that dismounting mobs have been in the game since vanilla, I am sure the elite skeleton casters in western plaguelands had a dismount spell.

[Sorrior]

mythic is the same blizzard tend to avoid one shot mechanics and put more stress on the healers than ffxiv, in wow a skilled healer can cover an execution error in ffxiv everyone must do it's job flawlessly or he is dead.



from my experience mythic raiders don't really care about lfr especially those in the super elite bracket of top 50-10, yes some do but the vast majority don't, the problem are the "wanna be".

Hmm thanks so guessing I won't have many issues in mythic then if I decide to hope in

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I think you're way off base. None of this stuff is about instant gratification:



This is an issue of avoiding pointless repetition rather than seeking instant gratification. Most players don't have an issue with not having flying at the start of the expansion and are happy to work at getting around because there is a sense of exploration and becoming acquainted with the world. But after several months it gets boring. We're here to play a game, not waste 75% of our time getting to the place where we want to actually do stuff.



I don't think it's about instant gratification though. It's about people who can't raid/don't enjoy raiding feeling excluded from being able to do stuff. While it may be true that reason for some of those people not raiding is resultant from a need for instant gratification, that is not a generalisation that should be made to all LFR participants.



Again, this isn't a matter of instant gratification. It's about avoiding pointless repetition. People are still happy to do it the time-consuming way first time around, but it's not as fun when you're doing it again and again.



Even though I disagree with people whining about the Legendary RNG, it's not abot about instant gratification. A lot of the people arguing there are happy to put in even more effort, their principle complaint is that about "undeserving" people getting lucky before others who have put in more work.


There is a difference between wanting to avoid putting in time and effort to achieve something and wanting to avoid jumping through pointless hoops to get something.

The interesting thing about lfr and the "No work give it now entitlement" argument is how most lfr stuff drops at much lower rates implying it takes them alot longer then normal or heroic or mythic players..the exact opposite of give me now mentalities.

I prefer lfr btw because I am not in a guild not a big one at least nor do I have the time to make group lfr let's me play the game and have fun doing larger fights

[InfiniteCharger]

Things are easier now than they have ever been for everything in WOW.

There are 160 legendaries in the game for legion.
wowhead .com/guide=4149/a-guide-to-legion-legendaries

Compare that to 6 for vanilla (across various levels), 9 for TBC, 2 for Wrath, 2 for CATA and one each for MOP and WOD (which most could get)

wowhead .com/guide=59/obtaining-legendary-items-a-comprehensive-and-understandable-guide#expansions-vanilla

Just from this you can see the difficulty curve has been steadily going down over time.
And you can see the same for almost every aspect of the game.
Raiding, leveling, gearing, crafting and so forth have all gotten easier.

So yes, compared to what it used to be the grind is a lot less, but folks are complaining about a grind.
I would say that is absolutely an entitlement attitude that has been promoted by Blizzard itself.

[-Joker-]

Things are easier now than they have ever been for everything in WOW.

There are 160 legendaries in the game for legion.
wowhead .com/guide=4149/a-guide-to-legion-legendaries

Compare that to 6 for vanilla (across various levels), 9 for TBC, 2 for Wrath, 2 for CATA and one each for MOP and WOD (which most could get)

wowhead .com/guide=59/obtaining-legendary-items-a-comprehensive-and-understandable-guide#expansions-vanilla

Just from this you can see the difficulty curve has been steadily going down over time.
And you can see the same for almost every aspect of the game.
Raiding, leveling, gearing, crafting and so forth have all gotten easier.

So yes, compared to what it used to be the grind is a lot less, but folks are complaining about a grind.
I would say that is absolutely an entitlement attitude that has been promoted by Blizzard itself.

I would have to agree on all counts.

[Kpmk]

Blizz should allow pathfinder to increase alt speeds as well according to this OP, so there is no real need to achieve anything with alts since they want mains to do the heavy lifting.

Having max level alts is extremely desirable to many players and yes i think blizzard should make gameplay that encourages people to make alts if they so wish. Currently, I would say this expansion very much discourages people from making alts.

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Things are easier now than they have ever been for everything in WOW.

There are 160 legendaries in the game for legion.
wowhead .com/guide=4149/a-guide-to-legion-legendaries

Compare that to 6 for vanilla (across various levels), 9 for TBC, 2 for Wrath, 2 for CATA and one each for MOP and WOD (which most could get)

wowhead .com/guide=59/obtaining-legendary-items-a-comprehensive-and-understandable-guide#expansions-vanilla

Just from this you can see the difficulty curve has been steadily going down over time.
And you can see the same for almost every aspect of the game.
Raiding, leveling, gearing, crafting and so forth have all gotten easier.

So yes, compared to what it used to be the grind is a lot less, but folks are complaining about a grind.
I would say that is absolutely an entitlement attitude that has been promoted by Blizzard itself.

Basing difficulty on the amount of legendaries in an expansion is just beyond ridiculous. Raiding has absolutely not gotten easier, the difficulty range has just been widened. You can't say mythic raiding is easier than classic raiding. That would be completely untrue. And who cares if everyone is running around in epics? LFR epics are epic only in the color of their names. You can't even compare mythic gear to LFR, a mythic raider will always completely destroy someone in LFR "epics".

[Sansnom]

Things are easier now than they have ever been for everything in WOW.

There are 160 legendaries in the game for legion.
wowhead .com/guide=4149/a-guide-to-legion-legendaries

Compare that to 6 for vanilla (across various levels), 9 for TBC, 2 for Wrath, 2 for CATA and one each for MOP and WOD (which most could get)

Not sure why the number of legendaries can be considered to be making the game easier. In the past, you raid, you roll, you may win a legendary. That to me is luck. Not that it was harder or easier.

Just from this you can see the difficulty curve has been steadily going down over time.
And you can see the same for almost every aspect of the game.
Raiding, leveling, gearing, crafting and so forth have all gotten easier.

That depends on your definitions of "easier" here.

Things taking less time does not mean it is easier, faster yes, easier, no.

Raiding has not gotten easier. I recall people commenting Heroic Rag in Cata was considered one of the hardest boss. There are easier version of the raids available. But if people prefer to raid the easier version, that is not the game is easier, it is the players chosing to play the easier version.

[darkwarrior42]

Things are easier now than they have ever been for everything in WOW.

Since the OP agrees with you, this seems as good a place to start as any. I'll start off by saying the following things:
-"easy" refers to challenge involved. Something which takes no skill or effort, but a long time, is not hard. It is time consuming.
-Referring to a specific thing being easier than it was before does not mean the game as a whole is easier. Labels and concepts change and evolve, the whole picture must be taken into account.

So, bearing those two points in mind, shall we proceed?

There are 160 legendaries in the game for legion.
wowhead .com/guide=4149/a-guide-to-legion-legendaries

Compare that to 6 for vanilla (across various levels), 9 for TBC, 2 for Wrath, 2 for CATA and one each for MOP and WOD (which most could get)

wowhead .com/guide=59/obtaining-legendary-items-a-comprehensive-and-understandable-guide#expansions-vanilla

Just from this you can see the difficulty curve has been steadily going down over time.

-Number of legendaries does not in any way, shape, or form, equate to difficulty of even the legendaries, let alone for the entire game.
-Legendaries have no inherent difficult level attached to them, and many of the older legendaries were pure RNG... only a few required the higher difficulties to obtain.

In other words, you have done nothing whatsoever to indicate that the difficulty in obtaining a legendary has gone up in any way, shape, or form, nor have you done anything to indicate why that would indicate the game as a whole has become more difficult.

And you can see the same for almost every aspect of the game.

Given your total lack of evidence, I'm dubious I'll see anything at all, but we'll go on.

Raiding, leveling, gearing, crafting and so forth have all gotten easier.

-Leveling has been easy for a long time... at least since WotLK, and I would argue since TBC as well.
-Gearing has varied greatly in difficulty over the years, but getting to a good ilvl is no easier now than it has been in the past. Getting geared to a moderate level is easier now, I will grant, but getting to Heroic or Mythic raid level? That still takes a good bit of effort. Luck will probably get you one or two pieces at that level, but one or two pieces does not gear up your toon.
-The difficulty of crafting has always come from whether or not it's difficult to gather or get recipes. By and large, that has equated to a time investment, not challenge... the only exceptions were possibly a few patterns that came from raids. As for how it is now.... go check out the profession forums, see how many people are struggling to get higher ranks of patterns.
-Mythic raiding is still very difficult. LFR is, as per usual, easy. Whether or not "raiding" is easier depends entirely on your definition.

So what I see here is... nothing.

So yes, compared to what it used to be the grind is a lot less, but folks are complaining about a grind.
I would say that is absolutely an entitlement attitude that has been promoted by Blizzard itself.

There is absolutely a grind available. It's not mandatory unless you need to be on the cutting edge of AP, but it exists. Whether or not it's worthy of complaints.

So.... this all means very little, so far as I can tell.