[7.0] Legion Discipline Priest Guide and Discussion

[nguyenmb]

That was @Sups.
No? You have failed in all 10 of your posts to acknowledge that it is a talent, and that talents are selected per-encounter, not on a second to second basis. Nothing you have said at all even remotely reflects the fact that it is an encounter-wide decision, which is always bad due to being terrible HPM.

I naturally assume the readers of this forum are savvy enough to know this already. I also natural assume noone in their right mind would read the talent for shadow covenant and think it's talent you choose to try to increase your hpm. I also think most people can infer the intent of the talent choice is to increase hps in low atonement spread situations. So i naturally assumed that level of savviness among forum readers

[Supliftz]

I naturally assume the readers of this forum are savvy enough to know this already. I also natural assume noone in their right mind would read the talent for shadow covenant and think it's talent you choose to try to increase your hpm. I also think most people can infer the intent of the talent choice is to increase hps in low atonement spread situations. So i naturally assumed that level of savviness among forum readers

i think most readers would instantly figure out that shadow covenant is bad tho

[nguyenmb]

i think most readers would instantly figure out that shadow covenant is bad tho

Is this proven? shadow covenant is easier and more practical because its a reactive ability like prayer and you dont neccesarily have to spam it so you may not suffer its drawback , when you cast it heals almost like 2 prayers , halo->x2 covenant , thats alot of aoe heal , it will also not heal the same targets all time , im still trying to figure when im supposed to use radiance , well its easy against elerethe or ursoc maybe xavius too but the rest i dont really know.

Not one other person has helped this person evaluate the numbers.

[Kraide]

ONLY if you manage to top those 5 people off, and get lucky that none of them take damage in the next 6 seconds.

Not sure why you keep ignoring the healing absorb. Yeah, you do a good bit of healing...but then absorb future healing not only from yourself, but other healers as well.

And yeah, it kinda has a much higher mana cost than Smite, so...apples and oranges, there.

If you're so confident that Shadow Covenant isn't terrible, go ahead and post some logs to prove it.

Not to say I agree with using SC exactly, but he is right and he did include the fact that it was stronger than smite, even with 10 atonements, and *even counting the absorb*. It's important to note that the 275% spell power times 5 targets (that's the effective amount if *all* of the absorb is forced to be eaten by other healing, like say a very heavy AoE situation where you simply have to spam this single spell repeatedly and not a single person is topped off by it at all) in on par with halo, per target (with no cooldown, but more pricey). It is stronger, even with the entire damage absorb, than circle of healing, which is on a 15 second cooldown. At its worst, its on par with shadow mend if it hits 3 targets even if shadowmend is at its best (almost all the kickback damage is immediately eaten by enemy damage).

The drawback does suck, and is a limiter that keeps it from far surpassing these other skills, and in practice that heal absorb blows all the big chunks, but even at its worst, it really is still a pretty potent heal. And while it's more likely all the damage kickback from shadowmend will be eaten than the absorb being able to run its course on SC, it won't happen every time.

The biggest problem with SC isn't that its a bad spell, not really, but that it is inherently selfish. If you are spamming it, odds are you'll get more mileage out of doing so than the other healers, which will be healing an absorb while you spend another second or so tossin' out the high heals. Shadowmend also has a drawback, but it doesn't fight the direct healers so much as it races enemy damage... which is likely to be incoming in a situation where you cast shadowmend anyway. Honestly, making SC an simply direct AoE version of SM would make it much better. Probably so much so that it would be a hard go-to for countering consistent raid-wide damage, which is probably why it was designed *not* to work that way.

If I were to think up a fix, it would be to simply reduce the heal absorb time from 6 seconds to about 3. Perhaps even 2. JUUUUUST enough so that if you spam it, you will eat it, but the chance it will disappear before it has to penalize other healers (IF said target isn't being spammed) is much greater. Not my call, at any rate. It's not popular, so if it doesn't suddenly become popular in the near-future, it's fair to expect it will be more heavily iterated on in a patch to come.

[Totaltotemic]

The healing absorb is not a reason why Shadow Covenant is a bad spell. It's just smoke and mirrors that complicates the actual healing value of the spell.

It's a bad spell because if you are even halfway trying as a healer in Legion, you should be running out of mana on every single raid boss right at the end.

You will literally do more healing if you talent into Grace and spam Clarity of Will on the tanks than if you even talent into Shadow Covenant. You will do more healing taking The Penitent and Grace than using Shadow Covenant. You will do more healing taking Grace and just spamming Shadow Mend. All of those options are vastly inferior to just playing normally, but Shadow Covenant is on its own special level of bad. Spamming Smite with a single Atonement is more HPM than Shadow Covenant (yeah go ahead and run the numbers on that if you want).

Yes, Shadow Covenant does more Healing Per Cast Time (what people have been calling HPS for some reason...which isn't the same thing) than almost any other non-cooldown spell in the game. That's not rocket science, everyone knows that. It doesn't matter though, because it has an abysmal HPM conversion and it only takes a single pull of a single boss (or just looking at the numbers 10 months ago when the spell came out) to figure out that it's absolute trash, not because of its mechanics, but because it is so bad that no healer in the game would ever use the ability in a raid even if you handed it to them baseline. The spell is numerically terrible.

[Pearl1717]

Reason why SC is terrible:

Over a 20 second period of constant damage (just to make this in favor of SC, to show how bad it is):

SC will do ~ 17500%sp effective healing (or 35000%sp total).

Typical atonement burst (maxing out at 15 atonements only, and yes factoring in atonements falling off during this) will yield ~27000%sp. This is factoring in a 10 second setup with 10 second burst. And this doesn't even take into account any artifact traits. If I did just add on at leas 20% healing to this.

Or we can compare a more realistic scenario of 10 secs of burst in which case you're looking at 7500%sp net for SC vs 22000%sp for atonement.

Oh and this isn't even factoring in how much more mana intensive SC is than regular atonement playstyle (lul 65% mana for SC vs 35%).

And yet somehow, even after months of knowing how trash SC is, people are wanting to discuss it again? Why? Just stop. It is terrible.

[Deleted]

So without Mana Hymn and without Innervate I have no mana problems. It's not that hard to manage mana. Just try not to use Shadowmend often and instead use PW:S on CD and Plea. If you need more atonements out but you don't want a full 30% mana PW:R burn use Rapture - this works really well, because even if you aren't fully prepared for the damage or it's already happening the instant shields will absorb a lot of damage and when broken you have atonements up to use.

With Innervate and Mana Hymn I can literally throw PW:R out so much the other healers will rage at me.

Generally speaking, you should have a mana trinket, a lot of mana potions (they are really cheap to make - only Leytorrent are expensive) and avoid using Shadowmend when you can - but do use it for spothealing when really needed.

Mythic Nythendra no healer can even remotely compete with me. We have a paladin, druid, monk, holy and me (holy isn't always there, because we need more dps). All of them have BiS Legendary Items and 10-15 itemlevel over me. I still have no legendary because Blizz retarded "bad luck protection" is a freaking failure. But whatever, Disc legendaries suck anyway compared to the legendaries of other classes. Same as our traits.

[Al Gorefiend]

So without Mana Hymn and without Innervate I have no mana problems. It's not that hard to manage mana. Just try not to use Shadowmend often and instead use PW:S on CD and Plea. If you need more atonements out but you don't want a full 30% mana PW:R burn use Rapture - this works really well, because even if you aren't fully prepared for the damage or it's already happening the instant shields will absorb a lot of damage and when broken you have atonements up to use.

With Innervate and Mana Hymn I can literally throw PW:R out so much the other healers will rage at me.

Generally speaking, you should have a mana trinket, a lot of mana potions (they are really cheap to make - only Leytorrent are expensive) and avoid using Shadowmend when you can - but do use it for spothealing when really needed.

Mythic Nythendra no healer can even remotely compete with me. We have a paladin, druid, monk, holy and me (holy isn't always there, because we need more dps). All of them have BiS Legendary Items and 10-15 itemlevel over me. I still have no legendary because Blizz retarded "bad luck protection" is a freaking failure. But whatever, Disc legendaries suck anyway compared to the legendaries of other classes. Same as our traits.

I disagree, the disc belt that resets the CD on penance whenever we smite sounds like a freaking monster of a proc.

not that id ever get it

- - - Updated - - -

And yet somehow, even after months of knowing how trash SC is, people are wanting to discuss it again? Why? Just stop. It is terrible.

Is it considered class fantasy for Priests to always have a garbage level 100 talent that doesn't get touched the whole expansion?

[Deleted]

I disagree, the disc belt that resets the CD on penance whenever we smite sounds like a freaking monster of a proc.

If it was that it would be great, but it's a 30% chance, so it's unreliable. You are also forgetting that Penance isn't that monster of a spell anymore. It costs A LOT of mana in Legion. This is the main drawback of Penance. It's not WoD anymore where Penance healed 1 or even 2 people full for barely any mana. The other is that it does nothing on it's own. It is simply a very powerful HPS/HPM spell IF a lot of atonements are up (or are up on the right people).

The problem with the belt legendary is that you need to smite to get the proc - which is not possible that much in a raid (it's in 5mans tho). If you get the proc you spend a whole lot more time casting Penance, which leaves less time to smite, so it's negative feedback. The more procs you get the less procs you get. And spending more time casting penance means you spend less time applying atonements which reduces the high HPS/HPM of Penance.

Basically, why Penance works so well normally is because you have 9 seconds between two casts to apply atonements. If that time was reduced by say 2 seconds, it would be an incredibly good legendary. However, it's a random proc that requires you to spend time casting smite.

Just realistically this how things go:
Apply atonements ~3-5sec
Penance ~1,5sec
Smite ~1sec
Smite ~1sec
Apply new atonements, refresh old ~2-4sec
Move/Reg mana/misc spells (Halo, Mindbender) ~1-2sec
Penance ready again

Now if you get a reset on Penance after the first or second Smite, which we can consider lucky (30% on first, 51% on second) what are you going to do with that Penance?

In a burst heal scenario it's probably even worse. You spend a lot of time using PW:R, then Artifact+Smite. After that the atonements already fall off and you might get 1-2 smites off before a few are gone already. Sure, you will probably get a proc and can Penance while a good amount of Atonements are out - however, think of this: Who actually needs healing? You burst heal as Disc for damage spikes. After such a huge spike there won't be another for 10 seconds usually. And if you do it right after the initial Artifact+Penance everyone is full - trust me on that.

I'm not saying the legendary is bad or even useless, I would agree that it's "pretty decent", but I'm saying it's not as powerful as people make it out to be.

Me personally, I would rather get the ring or the chest, because making barrier actually heal indirectly is amazing and I use plea A LOT while a few atonements are out, so I would probably get a solid 4-6% haste constantly for free.
For 5mans however, the belt seems really the best legendary to have by far.

[Supliftz]

Well since you barely cast smite that much raids to begin with, the smite belt is pretty average.

It's decent on some bosses (such as dragons of nightmare, or mythic xavius), but on fights like ursoc or cenarius, it's pretty worthless.

Gloves/Chest are a lot better overall.

[Deleted]

I have the belt, was my first legendary. I made an aura to yell at me whenever it procs - but in all honesty, it's really unreliable and more often than not penance comes off cd on it's own, since we have other things to do than just spam smites in between the regular penance cd. It's nice in dungeons (and wq huehue), but didn't feel like much of a thing in raids - where a lot of stars need to align in order to make it worthy. Let's face it, in those 5 seconds we have to dps when we have multiple atonements up, smite spam won't be a priority.

As said above, it's not bad, but not a monster either.

[Deleted]

First post so info on my progression: 7/7 normal EN, M+5

If I had the belt I'd just add one Smite after every Penance and work on the result. Usually there's nothing else you have to do after the Penance anyway (PW:S probably just coming off CD during Smite cast).

Question: I see many Discs talking about mana issues (myself I also go oom at 50% if I don't play mindfully) and having to stand around not casting anything to help with that. On the other side advice is to stack haste. Casting faster = spending mana faster = more standing around not even Smiting because it's mana negative with a lot of haste. I have only about 18% haste so Smite is neutral for me. All I see haste doing now is increasing the number of attonements out during burst phases. As we only run with 10-15 people in PUGs, should I still focus on more haste (I can attone everyone anyway with the lower haste I have now) or rather get other stats? What are good reference percentages for the stats?

[Popokolara]

Gloves/Chest are a lot better overall.

Hello fellows.

I had the luck to obtain the legendary gloves and wanted to ask what people think about it. I admit i felt really underwhelmed as the atonement extension on myself seems like a small but not impressive benefit, and the second part wont even activate because its not worth specing into the penitent.

But i also saw sups comment so maybe i am not properly evaluating?

the chest, bracers and ring looked way cooler to me.

[PosPosPos]

Hello fellows.

I had the luck to obtain the legendary gloves and wanted to ask what people think about it. I admit i felt really underwhelmed as the atonement extension on myself seems like a small but not impressive benefit, and the second part wont even activate because its not worth specing into the penitent.

But i also saw sups comment so maybe i am not properly evaluating?

the chest, bracers and ring looked way cooler to me.

The gloves give disc a much needed survivability increase.

[Deleted]

So, maybe a stupid question but i don't know

Im shadow main, but i do the guild mythic + as holy.
I was wondering, because the statweights on gear for shadow, favor disc massively, if i should instead try to get a hang of disc.

Is disc good in mythic+? should i stick with holy?
Or is there no best in this case and should i just stick to holy for mythic+

[Pearl1717]

Is disc good in mythic+? should i stick with holy?
Or is there no best in this case and should i just stick to holy for mythic+

Disc is very strong in M+, imo much stronger than holy. Just spec grace and ToF (if pushing higher +) or PI for lower levels for damage. Use SM liberally, penance and MB on CD and you'll be set.

[pseudoJ]

Disc is very strong in M+, imo much stronger than holy. Just spec grace and ToF (if pushing higher +) or PI for lower levels for damage. Use SM liberally, penance and MB on CD and you'll be set.

How exactly do you deal with stuff such as archers in BRH and their fixate? Discipline is the weaker healer you can bring to mythic+ (it has low survivability, doesn't bring much utility). Disc can do mythic+ for sure, however saying that he is *very strong* is just spreading misinformation. Our primary place is in raids

[PeopleReady]

How exactly do you deal with stuff such as archers in BRH and their fixate? Discipline is the weaker healer you can bring to mythic+ (it has low survivability, doesn't bring much utility). Disc can do mythic+ for sure, however saying that he is *very strong* is just spreading misinformation. Our primary place is in raids

I'm not on the level of other discs here, but I find healing up to M7 easier as disc than holy. I haven't gone higher as either.

[pseudoJ]

I'm not on the level of other discs here, but I find healing up to M7 easier as disc than holy. I haven't gone higher as either.

Neither am I, nor am I denying disc might be better (haven't healed myth+ as holy). However the issues is claiming that discipline is a "very strong healer for myth+" whith resto druids, resto shamans, and holy paladins out there.

Ale notice you haven't actually answered my question about how you deal with said mechanics

[Supliftz]

The gloves give disc a much needed survivability increase.

it is also a strong passive hps increase