When will we ve buffed?

[Dvorjak]

We are currently the lowest ranked dps for boss damage in the 75th to 100th percentile for both heroic and mythic encounters. Not the lowest spec, but the lowest damage dealer out of all classes.

Therefore we should be buffed...right?

(Single target)

[Maletalana]

I keep seeing these threads, but as a Havoc DH main, I just don't see it. I do not raid mythic EN, so it must be exclusive to that raid that we are bad.... in LFR/normal raids/mythic+ 5mans/world boss raids/pvp, I am quite strong. I hear you that there are sims that claim we are shit, but in game, doing content both with my guild and with randoms / pugs, I am always either dominantly top dps (mythic+ with guild), or in top 4 during raids.

The only time I was near the bottom for dps was during our first attempt of Ursoc back during first week, when I was main shot caller and spent the entire time watching the group and calling out who needs to move where etc, and forgot to even use meta. That fight I was 3rd from bottom.

Otherwise I am doing great. ilvl 848.

Are all the complaints coming from mythic EN guilds?


Honestly at this point I don't expect or feel I deserve a buff of any kind. I feel very strong and not clunky at all.

[jayinjersey]

I get crushed by Feral, Demo and Ret on single or mostly single fights...but I'm usually the first non-Feral, Demo or Ret after that.


For whatever that's worth.

[Dvorjak]

Your personal dps is anecdotal evidence, therefore you need to look at a larger sampling to see where demon hunters actually sit.

[Berndorf]

Your personal dps is anecdotal evidence, therefore you need to look at a larger sampling to see where demon hunters actually sit.

ya, people always want to bring the 'I don't see much of my problem based on my raids' argument when that literally is not only a very tiny sample, but doesn't take into account a. item level discrepancies between you and your other guildmates or b. how well your fellow raiders actually play their specs. Using thousands of parses as evidence would be a much better indicator of how well the spec is actually performing. If logs are showing Havoc as mediocre at best then that's what it would point to being. If it shows us as at near the bottom then that's prob what we are regardless of how you may do relative to your other guildmates sometimes.

[Gungsunk]

Mythic logs still have way too few parses to be taken seriously. Also are you talking about a boss to boss basis or simply overall?

[Dvorjak]

Heroic shows the same results as mythic and there are a lot of heroic parses. I am referring to overall. However let me check boss to boss to see where we stand.

[jayinjersey]

Heroic shows we are middle of the pack with no boss where we "crush it"


Would I like to be upper middle? Yes.
Am I glad I'm not lower middle? Yes.


Just remember...we could always be Frost DKs

[Beet]

I keep seeing these threads, but as a Havoc DH main, I just don't see it. I do not raid mythic EN, so it must be exclusive to that raid that we are bad.... in LFR/normal raids/mythic+ 5mans/world boss raids/pvp, I am quite strong. I hear you that there are sims that claim we are shit, but in game, doing content both with my guild and with randoms / pugs, I am always either dominantly top dps (mythic+ with guild), or in top 4 during raids.

The only time I was near the bottom for dps was during our first attempt of Ursoc back during first week, when I was main shot caller and spent the entire time watching the group and calling out who needs to move where etc, and forgot to even use meta. That fight I was 3rd from bottom.

Otherwise I am doing great. ilvl 848.

Are all the complaints coming from mythic EN guilds?


Honestly at this point I don't expect or feel I deserve a buff of any kind. I feel very strong and not clunky at all.

No offense, but that's not good evidence at all. It's all anecdotal evidence as Dvorjak said. Havoc is definitely in a rather rough spot. Not as bad as say Frost mages, but since it's our only DPS spec that isn't too much of a bright side.

[seraphbreak]

If we were frost DKs, we would switch to unholy to compete. If Havoc is really crappy, then.... reroll entire class? Or suck it up and wait for a buff lol. I think DH is okay, although I wish single target was a little stronger. Even on bloodlust + prepot pulls w/ metamorphosis, I am like middle of the pack on dmg meters for first 20 secs. Can't out-burst mages/hunters/rogues/monks/etc.

[Dvorjak]

Heroic shows we are middle of the pack with no boss where we "crush it"


Would I like to be upper middle? Yes.
Am I glad I'm not lower middle? Yes.


Just remember...we could always be Frost DKs

We are at the absolute bottom, last place for a class. Not a spec as I said. Every other class, all of them have a higher dps option then us. Frost DKs can go unholy. Frost mages can switch too. We are the lowest class.

- - - Updated - - -

If we were frost DKs, we would switch to unholy to compete. If Havoc is really crappy, then.... reroll entire class? Or suck it up and wait for a buff lol. I think DH is okay, although I wish single target was a little stronger. Even on bloodlust + prepot pulls w/ metamorphosis, I am like middle of the pack on dmg meters for first 20 secs. Can't out-burst mages/hunters/rogues/monks/etc.

You are using anecdotal evidence.

[Maletalana]

ya, people always want to bring the 'I don't see much of my problem based on my raids' argument when that literally is not only a very tiny sample, but doesn't take into account a. item level discrepancies between you and your other guildmates or b. how well your fellow raiders actually play their specs. Using thousands of parses as evidence would be a much better indicator of how well the spec is actually performing. If logs are showing Havoc as mediocre at best then that's what it would point to being. If it shows us as at near the bottom then that's prob what we are regardless of how you may do relative to your other guildmates sometimes.

Well that's fair, you're perfectly correct on what you've said.

Even still, I don't get any satisfaction out of knowing that my particular spec will do 4% more dps at equal ilvl. If that is the case, then that "bad" spec just needs slightly better gear to get back on par with that other spec. I remember before our nerf we were very very good. I have a ret pally friend who had better gear than me, but I was still very much ahead of him. Both of us being veteran players with 8 or so years of experience, I can say that I believe our *skill at the game* is high enough and similar enough that I can negate discrepancies based on skill.

He had something like 842, where I was 835. I was still out dpsing him by a margin of 10% or so. Now with the nerf, we are about equal, even though he still ahs higher gear, something like me 848 to him 852.

These are based on observations of raiding together and mythic +4-6s.


If Havoc is totally hot garbage in a woodchipper, then you just need slightly better gear in order to produce the same as someone else with that gear. As you approach the more-or-less "gear limits" of, what, 860? 865? This advice becomes obsolete, but until then, just get some more agility and itll balance out.

Remember, dps compared to others is irrelevant if you don't down the encounter. I am not aware of a raid boss or 5 man encounter currently that is pure tank and spank. There is no fight where all the dps sit there, don't move, execute their rotation flawlessly for 10 straight minutes, and then win. If that were the encounter, yeah, we would be BS-ed and screwed. But those aren't the encounters.

BUT MAL I WILL GET BENCHED IF OTHERS DO MORE DPS WITH SAME GEAR LVL CUZ DH IS GARBAGE

Well, if you are such an extreme hardcore fanatic, then have multiple classes so that you can always play the fotm. If you cant be bothered to level up a few classes to max ilvl, then you shouldn't be worrying about these 95th % sims.

BUT MAL I JUST WANT TO ENJOY MY CLASS I NEED A BUFF

Either enjoy your class because that fantasy is neat and enjoyable (like current Havoc for example)
Or have a few classes ready so that if Havoc's are getting benched at 95th % you are safe from being kicked as a player.


It is ridiculous to seriously pursue being mathematically perfect, yet unwilling to pour a full-time-job's-worth of time into the game.




Reroll to fotm, or quit complaining that its slightly more difficult for you to be mathematically perfect than the other classes.

[Berndorf]

Well that's fair, you're perfectly correct on what you've said.

Even still, I don't get any satisfaction out of knowing that my particular spec will do 4% more dps at equal ilvl. If that is the case, then that "bad" spec just needs slightly better gear to get back on par with that other spec. I remember before our nerf we were very very good. I have a ret pally friend who had better gear than me, but I was still very much ahead of him. Both of us being veteran players with 8 or so years of experience, I can say that I believe our *skill at the game* is high enough and similar enough that I can negate discrepancies based on skill.

He had something like 842, where I was 835. I was still out dpsing him by a margin of 10% or so. Now with the nerf, we are about equal, even though he still ahs higher gear, something like me 848 to him 852.

These are based on observations of raiding together and mythic +4-6s.


If Havoc is totally hot garbage in a woodchipper, then you just need slightly better gear in order to produce the same as someone else with that gear. As you approach the more-or-less "gear limits" of, what, 860? 865? This advice becomes obsolete, but until then, just get some more agility and itll balance out.

Again, that example you are giving seems very anecdotal given you aren't giving context behind the 10% dps numbers. Is that overall dps? Single boss fight? If its overall then it makes sense you would do 10% more given that aoe burst is a huge part of a dh's overall damage which kind of inflates its numbers off of trash. My biggest gripe with the nerf dh just got is a. it seemed too early for them to be handing one out based on where we were in the expansion(raiding had just started and people weren't even close to filling out artifact traits) and b. it flies right in the face of what they said just prior to Legion launch about doing no big nerfs and instead just slightly bring down what was near the top and trying more to bring up what was on the bottom. They need to keep their word about shit like that and not lie to people. They needed to instead just make one of the aoe abilities havoc uses a st skill.

[seraphbreak]

Honestly at least point it becomes 'if you have a legendary in raid you'll be more likely to top meters' rather than it is about class balance.

[Novakhoro]

Don't do this. Why do people want a constant flux of being god-tier, nerfed into the ground, risen from the ashes. Havoc is fine where we're at.

[Berndorf]

Don't do this. Why do people want a constant flux of being god-tier, nerfed into the ground, risen from the ashes. Havoc is fine where we're at.

I don't think that's necessarily what this thread is about. Bliz had a philosophy they announced prior to launch they said they were going to follow for handling class balance and should have stuck to it. If they wanted Havoc to be good for aoe and mediocre to poor for st they should have stated that before launch as well. What they did say is that relative power of specs/classes would be remaining the same after launch and there would be no major nerfs to any spec after launch. Then less than a month later they did what they did which they could have been handled in other ways. I am just so tired of Bliz saying one thing and doing another. Its been my biggest problem with them for the last 5-6 years. So many people came back to wow simply to play a dh. I wanted them to keep their word on how they would treat the class along with balance in general.

[Adoxe]

We're in the middle. We're fine, stop trying to be the best, that just puts a target on your back and ends up getting you nerfed to the ground.

[Maletalana]

Again, that example you are giving seems very anecdotal given you aren't giving context behind the 10% dps numbers. Is that overall dps? Single boss fight? If its overall then it makes sense you would do 10% more given that aoe burst is a huge part of a dh's overall damage which kind of inflates its numbers off of trash. My biggest gripe with the nerf dh just got is a. it seemed too early for them to be handing one out based on where we were in the expansion(raiding had just started and people weren't even close to filling out artifact traits) and b. it flies right in the face of what they said just prior to Legion launch about doing no big nerfs and instead just slightly bring down what was near the top and trying more to bring up what was on the bottom. They need to keep their word about shit like that and not lie to people. They needed to instead just make one of the aoe abilities havoc uses a st skill.

Sorry, should've used clarity.

I usually watch Dps as average during Mythic+s, so, it is one calculation that is final after the last boss is killed, comparing all time spent in combat and damage done, so yes, that would be average of boss and trash, but for 5 mans, the trash is a pretty big part of it, while bosses are 2-3 minutes at most.

On raids, I have it set to encounter time. so each trash pull or boss is recalculated starting at 0. On boss fights Dps is mostly similar, with the occasional bad player or low ilvl at the bottom, which I ignore. We have a marks hunter with 850+ that is consistently slightly above me, 2-3% more dps than me, on boss fights. My ret friend is usually beneath me, but barely. We have a frost DK that has something close to 860 and is competing for top dps, yes, a frost DK is doing near top dps, WHICH IS BECAUSE he has much better gear. Just because frost dk sucks doesn't mean its permabad. It just means he needs better gear to stay competitive, ***which is unfair, yes, but that's just how it is***

Lets see what else...... the occasional mage we play with is freaking awesome and is in top tier, always fire though. Never seen a frost or arcane even. Rogue guy is pretty cool but dps is bad, gear is average. It seems outlaw and assass are tougher to master than some specs? We are hurting for ranged, I haven't seen much of Spriest, balance, ele, or lock.

We are all mostly mid-20s to mid 30s, half have kids of varying ages, so our playtime is probably between casual and average.



Within our guild, I run with a consistent group for mythic +, havoc / ret / variable, with H pal and veng DH. the variable is either our rogue friend who is fantastic with 5 mans, and needs work on raids, but getting better, or a Pug ranged dps.

[Skankhunt42]

Seriously enough with the anecdotal evidentiary basis, it does not really bring anything to the discussion! We really need to consider incorporating an ilevel or progression block to posting because Blizzard bases their balancing of classes off sperglords like these filthy casuals and their normal progression guilds.

[Dvorjak]

Do schools no longer teach that anecdotal evidence is trash evidence?

"Our dps is fine because I top the meters."
"We are middle of the pack because that is what I notice"

All trash evidence. Look at the stats on Warcraftlogs and you will see that we are bottom. Not bottom spec, but bottom damage dealer.

Heroic:

All bosses, 75th percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...s&difficulty=4

(Last Class, not spec for dps)

All bosses, 90th percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=90

Same result.

Heroic 90th percentile (Damage done to boss):

Nythendra - Last
II'gynoth - Second to last (Hunter is last)
Elerethe- Last
Ursoc - Last
Dragons - Second to last (Hunter is last)
Cenarius - Second to last (Hunter is last)
Xavius - Last

We are last overall and last on 4/7 bosses, second lowest are hunters.