Crit vs vers for Havoc ?

[Varlak]

I know that Crit is our prefered stats but is it that much bether then versatility or its only a slight benefit ?

[aGit]

depending on your setup, versatility can sim ahead after you have 40+% crit

[Halyon]

Shame that getting versatility on crit gear is a pain in the buns.

[Barrin]

Looted Anger of Half-Giants yesterday. (first Leg) 22 Traits, 860 ilvl.

42,48% Crit
11,09% Haste
7,46% Versatility
16.31% Mastery

I always sim Patchwerk and then 3 target Dungeon 300sec Cleave without Bloodlust for Mythic Dungeons. Before my Legendary, Versatility already pulled ahead in multi target fights, now both Scenarios give me Vers > Crit

http://imgur.com/a/24qr3

[Edgekidxxx]

What kind of a shit show is this class, where our primary stat priority is becoming Versa? I love playing DH but this is getting absurd. Crit and Versa gear is going to be so hard to come by.

[Droodid]

What kind of a shit show is this class, where our primary stat priority is becoming Versa? I love playing DH but this is getting absurd. Crit and Versa gear is going to be so hard to come by.

Not only for havoc, but vers weighs heavy in veng. Then you go into raids and there's hardly any vers gear. So unless you get Mythic+ RNG gold, then it's pretty much "too bad"

[Barrin]

Honestly i can't wait for changes. Throw Glaive/Bloodlet Damage feels totally wrong compared to Blade Dance + Eye Beam. A freaking nocost filler GCD lame ability making 1 million dmg, while a 50 Fury 45 sec CD ability, which makes you immobile during its cast does only bit more than 1/3 of it as an integral part of class fantasy.

Evasion giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a mess. You just spam the shit out of your rushes in the first half of many fights just to get them as fast as possible, instead of using your abilities in a more timed, fluid manner. Not talking about wasting a defensive cooldown for damage. (Hello old Tricks of the Trade)

Vengeful Retreat being a Momentum Trigger feels stupid, especially when doing 24/7 Mythic+ with Boss Hitboxes like Players (Archway, Court of Stars.). Jumping away to get more damage? C'mon, we are not pussys. Thx wall for giving me the opportunity to jump and rush into, time for nosebleeds.

And finally Fel Rush. While totally fun in raiding encounters and Cleave fights, i hate it as soon as i spend my time running back to little Bossbox in Dungeons. Maybe it should rush you to the other side of your current target. Whatever. Improvement plz. Furthermore, the Burst window feels a bit to small and Fel Rush to fast to give it a more tactical feeling. Increasing Momentum uptime by maybe 1 second and decreasing Fel rush Charge Time would be something i would love to test. But hell, forgot Momentum is only a Talent. Whatever.

I hope we get some bigger overhaul with the next patch. Maybe making Eyebeam a more important part of rotation, giving Fel Rush more Control, giving Vengeful Retreat and Blur its defensive focus back, maybe changing something about this boring Throw Glaive spam.

[Edgekidxxx]

Honestly i can't wait for changes. Throw Glaive/Bloodlet Damage feels totally wrong compared to Blade Dance + Eye Beam. A freaking nocost filler GCD lame ability making 1 million dmg, while a 50 Fury 45 sec CD ability, which makes you immobile during its cast does only bit more than 1/3 of it as an integral part of class fantasy.

Evasion giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a mess. You just spam the shit out of your rushes in the first half of many fights just to get them as fast as possible, instead of using your abilities in a more timed, fluid manner. Not talking about wasting a defensive cooldown for damage. (Hello old Tricks of the Trade)

Vengeful Retreat being a Momentum Trigger feels stupid, especially when doing 24/7 Mythic+ with Boss Hitboxes like Players (Archway, Court of Stars.). Jumping away to get more damage? C'mon, we are not pussys. Thx wall for giving me the opportunity to jump and rush into, time for nosebleeds.

And finally Fel Rush. While totally fun in raiding encounters and Cleave fights, i hate it as soon as i spend my time running back to little Bossbox in Dungeons. Maybe it should rush you to the other side of your current target. Whatever. Improvement plz. Furthermore, the Burst window feels a bit to small and Fel Rush to fast to give it a more tactical feeling. Increasing Momentum uptime by maybe 1 second and decreasing Fel rush Charge Time would be something i would love to test. But hell, forgot Momentum is only a Talent. Whatever.

I hope we get some bigger overhaul with the next patch. Maybe making Eyebeam a more important part of rotation, giving Fel Rush more Control, giving Vengeful Retreat and Blur its defensive focus back, maybe changing something about this boring Throw Glaive spam.

I like where your heads at, I just honestly can't see anything being done until another expansion. Just purely going off historical evidence.

[seraphbreak]

It's a tough balancing act since Eye beam and Fel Rush are aoe attacks. If Eye beam really became stronger than bloodlet on single target, imagine how insane it would be on a 2+ target fight.

[Infective]

Honestly i can't wait for changes. Throw Glaive/Bloodlet Damage feels totally wrong compared to Blade Dance + Eye Beam. A freaking nocost filler GCD lame ability making 1 million dmg, while a 50 Fury 45 sec CD ability, which makes you immobile during its cast does only bit more than 1/3 of it as an integral part of class fantasy.

Evasion giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a mess. You just spam the shit out of your rushes in the first half of many fights just to get them as fast as possible, instead of using your abilities in a more timed, fluid manner. Not talking about wasting a defensive cooldown for damage. (Hello old Tricks of the Trade)

Vengeful Retreat being a Momentum Trigger feels stupid, especially when doing 24/7 Mythic+ with Boss Hitboxes like Players (Archway, Court of Stars.). Jumping away to get more damage? C'mon, we are not pussys. Thx wall for giving me the opportunity to jump and rush into, time for nosebleeds.

And finally Fel Rush. While totally fun in raiding encounters and Cleave fights, i hate it as soon as i spend my time running back to little Bossbox in Dungeons. Maybe it should rush you to the other side of your current target. Whatever. Improvement plz. Furthermore, the Burst window feels a bit to small and Fel Rush to fast to give it a more tactical feeling. Increasing Momentum uptime by maybe 1 second and decreasing Fel rush Charge Time would be something i would love to test. But hell, forgot Momentum is only a Talent. Whatever.

I hope we get some bigger overhaul with the next patch. Maybe making Eyebeam a more important part of rotation, giving Fel Rush more Control, giving Vengeful Retreat and Blur its defensive focus back, maybe changing something about this boring Throw Glaive spam.

Literally the only thing you complained about that's actually an issue is Eyebeam feeling underwhelming. None of any of that other nonsense represents any actual problem with the class, only with your preference.

[Deleted]

Literally the only thing you complained about that's actually an issue is Eyebeam feeling underwhelming. None of any of that other nonsense represents any actual problem with the class, only with your preference.

im on you on this one eyebeam is weak and there is 1 simple thing to factor it increase its base dmg by a lot and spread it out the more targets are hit even.

around 50-100k would do the trick.

[Hastera]

You people worry about stat weights way too much.
It makes so much less difference than you think. You don't need to have crit and vers on all your gear to be competitive. Be in denial all you want, it won't change the fact.

[Not Againnn]

You people worry about stat weights way too much.
It makes so much less difference than you think. You don't need to have crit and vers on all your gear to be competitive. Be in denial all you want, it won't change the fact.

what are you talking about? having less than 40% crit really hurts your dps as far as fury returns go. more chaos strikes is the way to go

@Varlak: yes vers is almost the same as crit, but its better than crit after ~41.7%, at least when i sim myself. anecdotally, when i get above 50% crit i start dropping it for other stats tho. im willing to drop a theoretical dps gain for more solidary increases like haste/mastery/vers and ESPECIALLY agility. it helps curve the rng-ness of havoc to me at least. i sim like 200 dps less but in reality i do better with slightly less crit after 41.7%

not sure where that number comes from or why, but its what ive been simming recently.

[Hastera]

what are you talking about? having less than 40% crit really hurts your dps as far as fury returns go. more chaos strikes is the way to go

@Varlak: yes vers is almost the same as crit, but its better than crit after ~41.7%, at least when i sim myself. anecdotally, when i get above 50% crit i start dropping it for other stats tho. im willing to drop a theoretical dps gain for more solidary increases like haste/mastery/vers and ESPECIALLY agility. it helps curve the rng-ness of havoc to me at least. i sim like 200 dps less but in reality i do better with slightly less crit after 41.7%

not sure where that number comes from or why, but its what ive been simming recently.

Site theoretical curves to dismiss a claim, then dismiss the theoretical results because of your "feeling"
Jesus Christ.

Not having 40% crit is fucking fine.
You're so simthumpy, you can literally sim it yourself.

And my point was that you don't need to forgo leather that doesn't have crit on it, no where did I mention crit wasn't the best stat. All I said you need to stop pretending that having 5 items on your paper doll without crit on it is going to be the deciding factor of your damage.

I don't know where the notion that a stat which should be less prioritized than another is useless, but that's what people are getting the impression of when they come here for help and ask question. Perhaps not intentionally so, but that is the result, then you have knowledgless word of mouth spreading causing even more of an issue to every thread and then even more people who have no idea what the fuck they are talking about fearmonger even more about that one DH who's damage is abysmal and the only thing they can think about that might be an issue with their dps is the fact that they don't have 41% crit.

But you're right.

You need 41% crit, that cutoff just literally doubles your fury generation it'll really hurt your dps, by at least .005%

[Not Againnn]

Site theoretical curves to dismiss a claim, then dismiss the theoretical results because of your "feeling"
Jesus Christ.

Not having 40% crit is fucking fine.
You're so simthumpy, you can literally sim it yourself.

And my point was that you don't need to forgo leather that doesn't have crit on it, no where did I mention crit wasn't the best stat. All I said you need to stop pretending that having 5 items on your paper doll without crit on it is going to be the deciding factor of your damage.

I don't know where the notion that a stat which should be less prioritized than another is useless, but that's what people are getting the impression of when they come here for help and ask question. Perhaps not intentionally so, but that is the result, then you have knowledgless word of mouth spreading causing even more of an issue to every thread and then even more people who have no idea what the fuck they are talking about fearmonger even more about that one DH who's damage is abysmal and the only thing they can think about that might be an issue with their dps is the fact that they don't have 41% crit.

But you're right.

You need 41% crit, that cutoff just literally doubles your fury generation it'll really hurt your dps, by at least .005%

why u gotta be an asshole?

[Deleted]

Vers will overtake Crit depending on your gear.

It can happen before 41%.

I've had it happen at 38%. It will entirely depend on your gear, sim yourself to find out which is currently better.

[Svisalith]

Vers often sims better than crit, especially for multi-target.

You'll probably have ~36-44% ish crit and a split of versatility and mastery with a little haste (~4-10%) with a good split of gear around 870 ilvl

[Bad Management]

No idea how you guys get vers>crit in your sims.
I'm at 47% crit, and crit is still ahead, though the gap has become smaller the more crit I get.

[FobManX]

I just broke 40% crit and the difference is noticeable. I feel like I'm consistently able to squeeze in that extra Chaos Strike during Momentum a lot more often which is a significant DPS boost.

[Adoxe]

Honestly i can't wait for changes. Throw Glaive/Bloodlet Damage feels totally wrong compared to Blade Dance + Eye Beam. A freaking nocost filler GCD lame ability making 1 million dmg, while a 50 Fury 45 sec CD ability, which makes you immobile during its cast does only bit more than 1/3 of it as an integral part of class fantasy.

Evasion giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a mess. You just spam the shit out of your rushes in the first half of many fights just to get them as fast as possible, instead of using your abilities in a more timed, fluid manner. Not talking about wasting a defensive cooldown for damage. (Hello old Tricks of the Trade)

Vengeful Retreat being a Momentum Trigger feels stupid, especially when doing 24/7 Mythic+ with Boss Hitboxes like Players (Archway, Court of Stars.). Jumping away to get more damage? C'mon, we are not pussys. Thx wall for giving me the opportunity to jump and rush into, time for nosebleeds.

And finally Fel Rush. While totally fun in raiding encounters and Cleave fights, i hate it as soon as i spend my time running back to little Bossbox in Dungeons. Maybe it should rush you to the other side of your current target. Whatever. Improvement plz. Furthermore, the Burst window feels a bit to small and Fel Rush to fast to give it a more tactical feeling. Increasing Momentum uptime by maybe 1 second and decreasing Fel rush Charge Time would be something i would love to test. But hell, forgot Momentum is only a Talent. Whatever.

I hope we get some bigger overhaul with the next patch. Maybe making Eyebeam a more important part of rotation, giving Fel Rush more Control, giving Vengeful Retreat and Blur its defensive focus back, maybe changing something about this boring Throw Glaive spam.

The only thing that should change from everything you just said is Eye Beam. Everything else is what makes Demon Hunters what they are. Don't like Fel Rush/Veng Retreat spam? Change to Rogue.